Through my bizarre journey into, through and out of a cult, I have concluded that our psyches are fragile. Most humans need soul food consisting of meaning and purpose; we need to feel effectual and we need connection to others. When we don’t have these ingredients, we feel incomplete; we seek them out and that search makes us vulnerable.
Isolation is one of the key components to cult indoctrination and ongoing tenure. I believe we are wired to connect. We need to laugh, cry, fight, make up, discuss, struggle and play together. A successful cult separates its cult-ees from the un-anointed as much as possible, while nurturing social dependence on the group.
Recently some of us were reconnecting via email and discussing the special “school”-sponsored brand of isolation. It categorizes humans into those who are in “school”, i.e. “doing the work” or not in “school”, i.e. “asleep”. It then imposes a double standard of scrupulous honesty within the hallowed halls, while employing “clever insincerity” on the others — after all “school” is meant to be the invisible world, protected by those omissions, or misrepresentations, or out right lies.
Needless to say, the longer my tenure, the more my primary social circle consisted of those “doing the work”. Our interactions were governed by “school” rules such as: no unnecessary talking; interact outside school only through voicemail — no organic and unmonitored conversation, no meeting for coffee just to chat; limit your discussion to ideas, school presentations and asking for “help”.
In concert “school”-specific “rules” began to shape and define my “un-schooled” relationships. The longer my tenure, the more “school” devoured my life. The more it devoured my life, the less common ground I had with those outside and the more I lied to “protect it”. You can see how attendees burn bridges and build walls between themselves and the “sleepwalking” masses.
What school’s “younger students” don’t know is that “school” extends the “clever insincerity” policy to govern interactions between attendees. “Older students” and “teachers” employ it on recruitees and their less evolved charges from recruitment on, ad nauseum. A “school” invitation, is simply the beginning — one of many “school”-sanctioned lies; it generally begins with the question “How would you like to meet other like-minded people who discuss ideas?” and concludes with the caveat, “…it is very important to not tell anyone about this…it’s private, just for you.”
From that point on, school employs a bullshit free-for-all! A free “five-week experiment”special — two nights a week, during which you join the anointed in Billerica, to discuss esoteric ideas that you “can’t find anywhere else”. Of course, Google Gurdjieff and ideas, publications and societies pop up on an endless font of websites, articles and books, etc. But “school” omitted Gurdjieff’s name from its “teachings” and written material (literally redacting his name from an entire book, then photocopying the pages and bounding it into “The Black Book”) and many of us had no idea that “school’s” source material began with his work.
This is coupled with “school’s” non-fraternization policy — the requirement that “schooled” souls don’t acknowledge each other when in out “only life”. We were to be components of the invisible world; men and women who were “working on themselves”, approaching the day-to-day grind from above, intersecting the horizontal world with the vertical world (imagine, if you will, the symbolism of the cross) and spreading the gospel through our fine vibrations without revealing ourselves as wingless angels and certainly never talking to those who deserted the ranks.
As time progresses, “school” insinuations morph into “there are people out in life vying to bring the institution down” further feeding the us verses them ideology. Its deceit continues to proliferate exponentially over time — lies require more secrets; more secrets require more lies and on and on and on. It is a simple equation really: the longer your tenure, the more lies “school” feeds you and the more lies you tell — ever widening the gulf between you and the un-“schooled”.
Inevitably, the un-“schooled” confront the “schooled” and then “school” — predictably — paints those who confront as “school” saboteurs. My husband confronted me and I turned to “teachers” for “help”. “School’s” response —“tell your husband to mind his own business”— provided a rude awakening: my insignificant and annoying little marriage (along with my shrinking bank account and tenuous mental health) were inconveniences to “school’s” illustrious and mysterious aim (more real estate for Sharon). “School” was pushing me to choose between it and my marriage. I told Robert that if I stayed in “school”, I would lose my marriage. His response revealed my “only life things” as insignificant; “It’s a terrible thing your husband has done to you,” he said. Yes indeed, a terrible thing — my husband told me his concerns over my crippling depression, school-related waning self-confidence and our dwindling finances. My husband decided to do some online research and found damning information about “school” which he shared with me — what a monster.
Up until that point, I had been employing the required “clever insincerity” as much as I felt necessary. I wasn’t a model student by any stretch; I was certainly not the most clever of “school’s” insincere — I’ve always been more of a heart-on-my-sleeve kind of gal, so I’m considerably more clever when sincere. Also I had my own creative definition of when to use “clever insincerity” — my personal model often didn’t align with “school’s” prescription.
That said, the longer my tenure, the more I justified the need to “protect school” and the more lies I told. Suddenly, I woke up to the fact that “clever insincerity” had separated me from the un-“schooled” as a superior human — a woman “working on myself”; a woman “awakening”. I recognized this superiority — beings who are ” in the world, but not of it” — as its own clever insincerity. We were people with “magnetic center” — not everyone has magnetic center, school told us; in fact, most don’t. “Hmm,” I said to myself, “Maybe I need to re-join the un-magnetic human race.”
Leaving was fucking lonely. I’ve never felt so alone before or since. Even when my father died I stood beside him with my family. Usually a stoic and heady bunch, we joined hands and said goodbye together, watching the breath literally leave his body. But leaving “school” came only with insomnia jolting me out of bed at sunrise and sending my feet to walk a nearby park. Watching the sun climb over the trees illuminated the psychic and emotional gulf between myself and those I love; it opened up before me in a clear, blue morning sky: I saw myself with no one to talk to and no where to turn except upward to consult with the powers beyond me and inward to consult my heart.
Solitude forced me to face the truth: I was addicted to “school” and prolonging my tenure out of fear. “School’s” benefits had long since petered out; yet, I believed I needed it. My tenure had morphed into emotional dependence ruled by my sense of helplessness, my inability to make simple decisions without “teachers” to “instruct” me, as I was less and less able to trust my own thoughts, perceptions and emotions. The more “help” I needed, the more license “school” had to increase its demands and, in concert, eat away at my “un-schooled” relationships. The more I owed to “school” and its mysterious aim, the less I had to share with the masses. My efforts to evolve vis-a-vis “school” reduced me into a woman that dismissed and hurt my husband and lied to almost every important person in my life. Of course, along with it came an increasing discomfort — my inner rebels who kept asking, “Ummm, what the fuck are you doing?” I didn’t trust them and tried to dismiss them; thank God they persisted.
When I left school, I was suddenly free from “school”-sponsored restrictions, sleep deprivation and the shackles of constant and ever-growing “school” demands. But for roughly the first month, I was still “honoring” the non-fraternization policy.But the inconsistencies, the lies I had told and the things I’d done in service to “school” that I didn’t believe in started nagging at me and playing out like movies in my mind. I saw how, like any good addict, I had become increasingly more willing to do things that felt seedy, deceitful and wrong.
The more I saw, the more I felt the shame and embarrassment that comes with realizing you’ve been led down the primrose path and bullied right into a pile of bullshit. Shame is its own prison; it waltzes with secrecy dancing you into further isolation. I began to feel like a madwoman. I broke the isolation out of shear desperation — I couldn’t bear this lonely dance and from this decision came two of the most important components of my healing: reaching out to the “dangerous and disgruntled ex-students” and eventually revealing “school’s” secrets by writing and posting this blog.
I can honestly say I have no regrets about leaving “school”. I now have no regrets about stumbling into it either — for it pushed me up against this question: how do I want to live? And I had to decide whether I wanted to follow my internal compass or continue seeking guidance and approval from external sources. And I now thank God that I “broke the rules” and shared my story on the world wide web. I have heard from many people all of whom were hurt by the illustrious institution. Secrets and isolation are “school’s” cancer. Telling the truth truly did set me free and reconnecting to my cohorts has been a critical component to understanding and recovering from this experience.
Several of us disgruntled now break “the rules” on a regular basis and this brings me back to the initial email conversation. Some of my former “classmates” made the brave choice to leave while still in their magical and amazing years. They were starting to see their tenures start to veer down a path that didn’t look quite as rosy and chose to trust that instinct. However, their choice to stay or go was not as clear cut as mine, and the resulting isolation messier and more painful. Not only that, the un-schooled spouses have experienced a different brand of “school”-sponsored isolation. I believe its important to know about their experiences and I have asked some of my co-horts to write guest posts and hope to create a series about isolation and the shrapnel it leaves in its wake. I hope you find it helpful.
In the meantime, break the rules!
This is the best piece you have written thus far, in my humble opinion. Well done.
May you go from strength to strength.
Thanks for reading and commenting George Moshe Murray!
A fantastic piece GSR! Amazing! Thank you! Wonderfully written – insightful and highly perceptive. As I read, and re-read your post I reflected back on events inhabiting the psychological landscape of my own experience – in the “magical” group I was involved with. Remembered events that once produced dark moods and disturbing dreams peaked out from behind rocks and trees. PTSD for sure.
Thank you for maintaining this blog. Knowing you are there is comfort and strength in a sometimes-lonely obligation.
I was particularly struck by a most poignant part of your writing where you state “Maybe I need to re-join the un-magnetic human race.” And then “Leaving was fucking lonely. Yes! That got it! The isolation, the them (sleeping humanity) and us (those trying to awake). Of course! We were Working on ourselves! We were the lucky ones. We were the anointed! What a bunch of crap!
Keep writing. Keep telling the Truth. Keep connecting! Take care!
From up the street,
Upper Lobby
Hello Upper Lobby and thanks for your kind words. I’m so glad you are finding my posts comforting. You are certainly not alone! But sometimes that is hard to remember, I know. Anyway, I actually keep thinking I’ll take a break from writing, but inevitably something pops up that grabs the muse and gets her spewing … such is life, I guess. 😉 Keep reading and sharing! GSR
Silence is a tremendous problem.
I am including here two excerpts from an article by Margaret J. Wheatley entitled “Silence is the Problem.”
“Eight hundred years ago, Catherine, a woman living in Sienna Italy who was later to become a saint, stated: “Speak the truth in a million voices. It is silence that kills.” Her words haunt me today, as I notice how much silence there is, and how it is growing around the world.”
“I’ve had a personal experience with silence and giving voice. I became committed to being aware of my silence several years ago when I was working with a colleague from South Africa. It was just eighteen months after the elections that brought Mandela and black South Africans to power. My friend, like many white South Africans, was just then learning the details of apartheid, the system under which he, as a white, had prospered while millions had suffered so horribly. As more and more atrocities were revealed, his 27 year old son came to him one day and asked: “How could you not have known what was going on? How could you not know?” I was sitting in the comfort of a conference room in America when I heard this story. But the questions pierced right through me. I knew in that moment that I never wanted to be in the position of my friend, that I never wanted to be confronted by my own children or grandchildren.
Since then, I do not always speak up for all the issues and problems that disturb me. I give voice to some and not for others. I can’t pretend that I make rational choices, where I “choose my battles.” Sometimes I am just too tired to care, sometimes I lack courage, sometimes I notice that others have picked up that cause and I don’t have to. But at least I now notice when I remain silent, and am more conscious that silence is a choice I make. I’m learning that silence is not the absence of action, but another form of action. And I hold myself accountable for that.
The 18th century historian Edmund Burke said it clearly: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” I hope that I am doing what I can, although it may not be enough. And if my grandchildren one day come to me and ask, “Why didn’t you do something” at least I will be able to tell them what I did.”
http://www.margaretwheatley.com/articles/silenceistheproblem.html
This is a very poignant article. Thank you, Cara, for the link.
This is another excerpt from one of Margaret Wheatley’s articles entitled “No One is Saved by Silence” which was originally published in Spirituality and Health magazine.
“In Western culture, it is common to keep our pain to ourselves. The greater the suffering, the more we withdraw. We’ve been taught to bear trauma privately, to get on with life. And we who have suffered trauma often silence the suffering ones. We don’t want to hear their stories because we won’t know what to say. When others voice their pain, grief, loss and despair, we believe we must fix it or make it go away, that it’s not enough just to listen.
The tragic irony is that SILENCE CREATES MORE TRAUMA…. THE ANTIDOTE HAS BEEN TO BREAK THE SILENCE. Telling our story and being listened to is one of the simplest ways to heal.”
It can’t be said too often. I will say it again:
SILENCE CREATES MORE TRAUMA.
THE ANTIDOTE HAS BEEN TO BREAK THE SILENCE.
Cara, I hope you don’t mind me stealing some of your thunder for my blog site! Great comments!
Hi Cara, I couldn’t agree with you more because I’ve experienced the healing that comes with letting go of secrets. The simple act of laying out my entire embarrassing story online has freed me in ways that I can’t even begin to describe. Whereas, when I was still trying to be a “good student” and stay “sealed”, I was starting to feel crazy and isolated.
I remember when the non-fraternization part came in. The rationale was that everyone had become too dependent and weren’t living their lives. Sadly, I think pretty much everyone started trying to build “friendships” outside of school as an assignment, which was a form of using people who hadn’t asked to be used. Then, of course, people tried mining some of these “friends” for potential recruits to school.
Hello HDT and thank you for your comment. The history you provide is invaluable, really. I remember believing that this “non-fraternization” policy was something all secret esoteric schools over history put into place. No, it’s just one of many arbitrary “school” rules. Do you remember how long ago “school” implemented this particular policy?
Hmm. It would have had to be by the mid-1980s — maybe 84 or 85. But of course, with the number of people who worked at the same businesses, it couldn’t really work. I do think the underlying idea was a potentially good one, given how a bunch of people were running away from the rest of their lives to only socialize with/date other participants. Unfortunately, just like so many other good intentions, it turned into something different. I can’t say whether esoteric schools throughout history did something similar or not.
As I understand it, you folk were not allowed to fraternize with each other outside of “work” related activities? Is that right?
As “Haven’t Decided Today” noted, it could not have been implemented any earlier than ’84 or so because, “back in the day,” before 1984, not only did we fraternize but we were all bound to each other much of the time all over the place.
Although, as I noted, I do enjoy reading your excellent writing, you do make me sad that these people that I knew and loved have fallen so far and created this mind numbing cult of idiocies.
O’ what a Brave New World that has such people in it…
It is so sad.
Perhaps I have misunderstood, but…
“…these people that I knew and loved have fallen so far and created this mind numbing cult of idiocies.”
I hope you are not referring to the present as well as deceased “powers that be” George Moshe Murray. The “fall” happened way back when – not recently! Members of my own group (cult) also sometimes wax nostalgic about the “early days”. Everything seemed “so right” back then. This would be back in the mid to late 60’s. Well, let me tell you, everything was NOT “so right” back then. The crazy manipulations and sexual predations existed in full force. It was hidden like a Vulcan cloaking device! (Was Star Trek on back then?) Many highly intelligent people were sexually assaulted and abused. And many highly intelligent people didn’t have a clue. Some left the country. Some disappeared – where did they go? Many moved – far away to escape our leader. Believe me, the seeds of abuse were planted well “back in the day” – same as in your group.
Thanks for commented HDT & GMM. Again, I encourage you to fill in the blanks between the 1970s through now and coast-to-coast across the country. I encourage anyone out there reading this to do so …
George Moshe Murray, I am sorry to make you sad and — if at some point this group, these people you love, were sincerely participating in some sort of evolution — that is no longer the case today. They may truly believe themselves to be bettering the world, in fact, I can’t see how Robert, in particular, could continue this charade unless he believed in it. However, all the lies and secrecy have robbed it of any legitimacy. If they are kidding themselves, I am sorry for it. If they are not kidding themselves, they know they’ve only participated in spreading damaging deceptions that ruin relationships, empty bank accounts and drain participants of years and energy — essentially stealing lives.
I would put it more as massively destructively delusional… not just “kidding themselves.” What you and others have described is an absolute nightmare compared to the relatively benign insanity that we participated in way back when….
Everything you write – from disavowing Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, et al;”the black book” to the horrible “levels” of handlers and other different “titles,” to this “non fraternization” to just about everything you are describing is a sickening negative of whatever positive “school” was way back when. Yes, it was a “cult” of sorts; Alex was a violent jackass sometimes; Sharon was demanding and imperious; and Bob and the rest were often confused and belligerent but – everything was out in the open – the ideas; the books; even the methods of intimidation, etcetera – it was all discussed over and over again with the theoretical end result to “wake up” and “evolve.”
What you and others describe is a Satanic parody worthy of one of Alex’s plays.
I understand it is hard to imagine but, as many were the negatives back in the day, there were far more positives. And, by the way, I am speaking as an “ultra” Orthodox Jew who now believes that Gurdjieff was an incredible con man who manipulated people for his own pleasure and wouldn’t know a “waking moment” if it hit him in the face (which it apparently did later in life when he wrapped his car around a tree…)
It just makes me sad to see people like Bob, who really were sincerely trying to become better “more conscious” human beings to fall so far down their “evolutionary ladder.”
It is so bizarre. I acted in Alex’s “Magician.” And, there is a scene from Hell where Tyrant clones everybody to be the soulless replacements for the original human beings….
That’s what “school” sounds like today.
It really is sad.
It is terribly sad, and I’d agree that the people involved for the most part believed in what they were doing. And back when the plays were being put on, there was an effort to actually do something. Then things started to slip: money “borrowed” for “just a year” from all students for the down payment on the New York estate, but which no one ever talked about again (I remember at least one person clearly becoming disillusioned over it), all based on Bob’s personal word. Or a couple of students getting arrested for 3rd line work when the people leading it were becoming too angry over it, and then they pretended that they were the top of the organization to protect Bob, Fred, Sharon, and Alex. Problems with alcohol, a lot of anger. And yet, there were also attempts to be genuine and decent. Unfortunately, it looks like the dark swallowed the light.
Thanks again, George Moshe Murray and Haven’t Decided Today, for your comments.
A couple of things brought up thoughts and questions for me:
” … Alex was a violent jackass sometimes; Sharon was demanding and imperious; and Bob and the rest were often confused and belligerent but – everything was out in the open – the ideas; the books; even the methods of intimidation, etcetera – it was all discussed over and over again with the theoretical end result to ‘wake up’ and ‘evolve.’ ”
There is one thing that sounds like it wasn’t out in the open — the allegations that Alex sexually abused the women in the group. Did you hear about this back in the day?
“…I am speaking as an ‘ultra’ Orthodox Jew who now believes that Gurdjieff was an incredible con man who manipulated people for his own pleasure and wouldn’t know a “waking moment” if it hit him in the face.”
Yes, finally someone calls Gurdjieff out. From the wee bit of reading I’ve done, he sounds like he simply pre-dated L.Ron Hubbard in cultish tactics disguised as an “esoteric school”. The tactics are quite effective, apparently.
“Unfortunately, it looks like the dark swallowed the light.”
It does look that way. In fact, the dark has swallowed the light. Maybe humans simply can’t handle the power of becoming more highly evolved because it seems like many attempts to do so simply send those who are “working on themselves” into the pits of human behavior — either deferring and abdicating life choices and leadership to others, or taking advantage of power and control to manipulate the sheep. Maybe that’s why humans haven’t evolved past the point of going to war with each other. But I wax philosophical when I have no f*ing idea.
Thanks again for filling in the blanks and please continue, I welcome your voices to this format.
I only knew Alex after he was married to Sharon and had never heard anything back then about his having an eye for female students. Could he be violent in temper? Yes, but I also saw him wrestle with that and Sharon push to get him to take another direction. I saw older students also struggle and not simply sit as though they had reached some higher plane.
To change your reactions in the face of your upbringing or nature is incredibly difficult. I suspect it’s too easy to write people off when they show major signs of weakness. It’s one reason society either lauds or demonizes people without some balance and appreciation for personal struggles.
As far as Hubbard goes, you might check YouTube for an interview done by Robin Williams of the writer Harlan Ellison, who talks about being in the party at which he says Hubbard first caught onto the idea of creating a religion. It’s telling and amusing.
HDT, I can’t believe your giving Horn a pass for personal struggles as being the justification for physical violence, psychological manipulation and sexual abuse. This fellow was clearly a “Rogue Messiah” and one of the many faux Gurdjieff “leaders” out there. Anything less than a direct connection with the Real Gurdjieff people was a tremendous corruption.
UpperLobby, I don’t see anything I wrote that said I gave anyone a pass for anything. That is solely your interpretation, not what I was actually saying. When you look at one aspect of a person only, you create a caricature. That means you deal with neither people nor reality. My remark about writing people off when they show major signs of weakness is more broadly directed.
Of course there was a lot of questionable things with that group, but you can’t get closer to understanding what happened and emotionally freeing yourself from it if you don’t deal with the whole picture. I suspect Sharon and Alex and Bob and many others have bamboozled themselves more thoroughly than they anyone other than their most ardent admirers.
Does that make what they did any better? Of course not. But it helps explain what happened and why. It is possible to find someone’s actions abhorrent and to pity the person at the same time. There is no prison more secure and more painful than one’s one wishful delusions.
Oy. I have a great repugnance to the concept of “sexual abuse” as it is used today. Today’s insane world uses the term to mean something sexual that someone else thinks is wrong, even if it has nothing to do with the people involved.
As far as I know, Alex did not beat and rape young women or anything similar. I could be wrong but, I only knew Alex after he was married to Sharon. She apparently tried to tone down his violent impulses with some success.
To answer your question – yes, I did “hear” that Alex had had an eye for his female students and probably took advantage of his role as “teacher” to bed them. And, from what I gathered when I had some “unguarded” moments with either Sharon or Alex from time to time where they were just talking about their respective lives rather than being a cult leader, this was also a problem in their on again; off again marriage.
However, no, I never heard that Alex ever sexually abused anyone.
I wouldn’t put Gurdjieff as far gone as L.Ron. I am pretty sure that Gurdjieff knew exactly what he was doing. I think Hubbard let his sci fi fantasies take over his brain.
Either way, both men created very successful “esoteric” cults based on ideas that actually worked. And that’s the rub. Properly applied and expounded upon, as did Ouspensky; Collin; Nicoll; et al, these “4th Way” ideas actually do achieve desired results, as do some of Hubbard’s various practices.
Their ideas are not necessarily nonsense. However, the men were, indeed, charlatans who enjoyed the glitter of being cult leaders.
Oy vey!, George Moshe Murray! Really? I think I need to make a pilgrimage just to atone for these comments!
“Oy. I have a great repugnance to the concept of “sexual abuse” as it is used today. Today’s insane world uses the term to mean something sexual that someone else thinks is wrong, even if it has nothing to do with the people involved.
As far as I know, Alex did not beat and rape young women or anything similar. I could be wrong but, I only knew Alex after he was married to Sharon. She apparently tried to tone down his violent impulses with some success.”
Have you NOW heard, based on Pearl and Linda Jo’s comments about having been physically and sexually abused by Horn?
“I did ‘hear’ that Alex had had an eye for his female students…”? What?!? That’s quite a ways from rape!
“However, no, I never heard that Alex ever sexually abused anyone.”??? However?
Oh, George Moshe Murray! Please! Are you ready to apologize to Pearl and Linda Jo? Can you? Would you? Are you able to?
Oy Indeed.
I generally try and refrain from apologizing for my perceptions and beliefs. I don’t see the point.
Neither do I favor exacerbating other’s pain, which i why I have refrained from commenting further to the counterpoint of my impressions.
However, in consideration of your request, I offer you the following:
“If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber’d here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to ‘scape the serpent’s tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.”
– Puck; A Midsummer Night’s Dream; William Shakespeare
please excuse the lower case spelling– having a bit of keyboard malfunction…
“What you and others have described is an absolute nightmare compared to the relatively benign insanity that we participated in way back when…‟
“i understand it is hard to imagine but, as many were the negatives back in the day, there were far more positives”
“It just makes me sad to see people like Bob, who really were sincerely trying to become better “more conscious” human beings to fall so far down their “evolutionary ladder.”
i’m not sure how one can ascertain what bob’s sincere intentions were.
bob did not have far to go in order to fall down that ‘evolutionary ladder’– he was practicing and perfecting his form of psychic abuse and malevolence along with many of the ‘older students’ thirty five years ago– using cult of confession techniques to confuse and solidify an individual’s bond to the group. with that quietly rolling voice and gentle lisp he could pour out some of the most ridiculous to horrid nonsense you’d ever want to hear; or in a fury during one of the gang beating rituals, threaten to cut someone’s throat– i would not characterize this particular insanity as benign or just overheated rhetorical flourishes. i think the mind numbing idiocies were always pretty apparent, camouflaged by frenetic activity, group hysteria and suppression of critical thinking.
(as well as the sincere aspirations and excitement of some of the ideas).
gsr, you mentioned something that bob once said (i’m paraphrasing)– ‘the stronger side always wins’. not the truth, not the right or ethical, but the stronger side– and the stronger side can impose any truth that it wants. one doesn’t have to pick up an orwell novel to see the implications of this– it’s immediately apparent from history or the front page of today’s newspaper. or the horn/gans group of the 70s-early 80s or any malignant cult.
and alex was not just a ‘violent jackass sometimes’. he imparted an ethos of violence to the group which led to the institutional use of physical force. even the women’s groups would attack various female members at different times. and given gans’ pathologically narcissistic insecurities it’s not much of a stretch to imagine her encouraging physical attacks on someone she felt was being ‘hateful’ or a threat to her.
what i’m saying is that the narrative of the group as relatively benign, until a certain jaded attitude set in, is manifestly false– violence, and constant fear and intimidation was deeply ingrained from the onset (intensifying during “3rd line of work” i.e. ticket sales, book promotions, open meeting recruitment).
perhaps in the post sf examiner story period it was felt that the violence produced diminishing returns– i believe it was change of tactics rather than a change of heart.
as for sexual abuse– that’s a loaded subject and one easy to throw around. on one of the rick ross boards discussing the group, child sexual abuse was alleged. i was around a lot of the kids in the group and while i saw a certain amount of negligence and indifference i never saw any child sexual abuse– and i seriously doubt it existed.
but nothing in my experience with Horn/Gans and the group leads me to disbelieve the many stories of sexual predation that I’ve heard.
I remember one meeting where a couple was talking about the husband’s sister, who had been raped in a laundromat. Gans and Horn deconstructed the story, and by the end concluded that she had not really been raped (their rationale? She knew her attacker and shared a joint with him before the crime).
“She was a little raped”, I remember Horn saying genially, and Gans, repeating the phrase, nodding.
(The couple left the group not long after– I’m pretty sure this was their epiphanic moment).
sharon’s attitude toward many of the attractive female members in the group often ranged from bizarre to abusive. a first time attendee, a young attractive woman was asked out of the blue by gans– ‟do you have any desire to come between my husband and me?‟ the woman’s jaw dropped slightly and she shook her head no. that was the last time i ever saw her, which maybe was gans’ purpose in the first place. she obviously felt threatened by young women in the group, which might have been due to horn’s predilections.
That, and other “discussions” and impartments regarding gender and sex, attitudes expressed and mimicked, Gans/Horn’s fucked-up need to play out their intimate psychodramas through the group, along with everything I’ve read about people’s experiences and the psychodynamics of cult leaders, leaves very little doubt in my mind that there was a strong predator vibe going on.
But I never personally witnessed or experienced Gans or Horn act out in a specifically sexually predatory manner.
I find it interesting when men cavalierly toss “sexual abuse” about as, well, ahem, non existent, hard to define, or somehow an exaggeration of sorts.
(brad finishes with, “But I never personally witnessed or experienced Gans or Horn act out in a specifically sexually predatory manner.” And George writes, “As far as I know, Alex did not beat and rape young women or anything similar.”)
Of course not. How could you have? How exactly would you have been present, an eye witness, when violent acts of sexual abuse took place? You would have been given a ring-side seat with popcorn? In my own experience when identifying abuses, I am asked, “Well, did you actually see this take place? How can you be certain?” Hence the “perfect storm” many abused women face, having been raped, usually knowing their attacker, finding the courage to report the abuse and ultimately being successful in bringing justice to the perpetrator. That’s why most sexual abuse crimes go unreported and unprosecuted. And it is usually men who are judging.
That is why I applaud the Anita Hill’s, and the Dylan Farrows, the Pearls and the Linda Jos.
I just don’t find it acceptable, and I find it a bit cold to take the attitude that, well, I never saw anything personally, which implies that nothing inappropriate ever took place.
And HDT, I get what you are saying but how far up the line do we make space for thugs? Hitler? I heard he was a wonderful uncle. Shall we wrap up our reflections on him with a “Well, he was a complicated man.”? Jim Jones? David Koresh? If rape occurred, and I believe it did, that’s a pretty violent act – illegal too.
I hope I have commented in the right place. I think many people are struggling with these topics of discussion and I thank those who have commented regardless of the level of disagreement. It makes people think. We’re trying to make sense of the nonsensical. Thank you to GSR for providing this forum. It helps me find peace and understanding. May it bring the same to others who venture upon these pages.
>> And HDT, I get what you are saying but how far up the line do we make space for thugs? Hitler? I heard he was a wonderful uncle. Shall we wrap up our reflections on him with a “Well, he was a complicated man.”? Jim Jones? David Koresh? If rape occurred, and I believe it did, that’s a pretty violent act – illegal too.<<
I don't believe in excuses. I do believe in as much accuracy as I can muster. Please try to understand that for at least a certain set of people who came in contact with this group at a particular time, the experience seems to have been markedly different. For example, Pearl writes, "This was all **before** the 80′s, **before** the older group migrated to East Coast. It only got worse on the East Coast." Beatings and sexual abuse got worse on the east coast? If so, it must have all been carried out to a degree that was virtually invisible, or else all in NYC and not in Boston. "Gang beating rituals" that Brad mentions? Again, something completely out of my experience, and I had an association with the group for maybe 5 years.
Not only didn't I experience anything like this, I didn't hear anything remotely similar from anyone, and I was very close to a number of other people who were involved. Did I on maybe three or four occasions see physical violence among the male students? Yes, though on the scale of an old-fashioned boyhood conflict. People very, very rarely get into brief fisticuffs where there was no blood, no damage, and both walked away. I never heard the slightest suggestions of sexual predator behavior, although there was for a time a lot of switching-off relationships among the people involved. Lots of divorce, but I never heard that people were somehow told to do so. Passing kids along? First time I heard that was on forums like this one and it was a complete shock.
So, from the stories here, would I say there were huge problems? Of course, and I respect that many people had a horrendous time and are permanently scarred by what happened. But, please, don't assume that people like me or moishe3rd who claim a significantly different experience than yours are lying to you or to themselves. I'm not attempting to invalidate your experience. Please don't try to invalidate mine.
Hello Everyone,
Thanks so much for contributing to this healthy, albeit, heated debate. There has to be a forum for such discussions, it is the only way to brush up against the truth and begin exposing all the “school” lies from the seventies up until now.
Some thoughts to add to Upper Lobby’s argument:
@ Moshe:
“If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber’d here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream …”
Is it possible that it is you who have slumber’d, while others endured — not visions — but nightmares? Is it possible that your sincere desire to evolve and reverence for the esoteric ideas threw a veil over that which was odious, violent, reprehensible. You were quick to dismiss my question about sexual abuse … with this comment:
““Oy. I have a great repugnance to the concept of “sexual abuse” as it is used today. Today’s insane world uses the term to mean something sexual that someone else thinks is wrong, even if it has nothing to do with the people involved.”
What is your repugnance about? According to this comment sexual abuse is a “concept”. For those who’ve experienced it, believe me, it is not simply a “concept”. Do you have daughters and/or granddaughters? Have you ask ever them whether they’ve endured sexual harassment, assault or even rape? You might be surprised by their answers. Every woman has experienced at least harassment on some level. I remember an incident, at 14, I was riding my bike to a friend’s house and some asshole (adult male, I’m guessing in his 40s) said to me, “I wish I were that bicycle seat.” That little comment obviously left it’s mark as I can still recall it today, 35 years later. Do I need to explain how exposed, demeaned and belittled I felt; and I’m sure, to him, it was just another day of feeling entitled to say whatever offensive and demeaning comment he wanted to any female who gave him a woody — asleep and cold to the consequence. It’s not pretty. It is pervasive. And a lot of it has been accepted by society as “normal” for a long time … “boys will be boys”.
For that reason, I propose, that you may be the one who is asleep when it comes to this particular issue. And if you are asleep to it, you are also cold to the long term damage it causes, and the courage it takes to speak out as Pearl and Linda Jo have done.
@HDT,
“Beatings and sexual abuse got worse on the east coast? If so, it must have all been carried out to a degree that was virtually invisible, or else all in NYC and not in Boston. “Gang beating rituals” that Brad mentions? Again, something completely out of my experience, and I had an association with the group for maybe 5 years.”
I do have the feeling that the Boston crew was much more careful to curtail blatant violent tendencies and any indication of sexual abuse was muted — it was present, but would only come out in a brief comment, or attitude. Those attitudes or comments would also be countered by what appeared to be sincere concern. The topic of incest, or sexual abuse did come up in “class” discussions, often in the context of asking for “help”. I recall Robert, in those moments, expressing an appropriate disgust and anger in response.
I do believe that is why the entire experience is so confusing and also why it garners such heated debate. You see the best in yourself and your cohorts and the worst — in my Boston experience, the worst was always in verbally and emotionally abusive attacks. Sometimes Robert would intone that we needed to be more direct and confrontational with each other and sometimes it started to cross the line from verbal into physical, but I never witnessed, took part in, or endured physical violence. My tenure was also 5 years …
I do not doubt that your experience and Moshe’s was significantly different, as you say. And, again, I think that is why it’s so difficult to reconcile that those illustrious teachers were also capable of “becoming” the lowest scum on the earth, with absolutely no concern for the damage inflicted on others — for those others were simply lowly caterpillars, existing to serve the leadership.
In my experience, the first two years were filled with amazing ideas and sincere efforts to encourage my growth as a human being. That’s why I stayed on for next three years, even as my experience kept getting worse, damaging me psychically. I kept waiting for it to get better — after all these more-evolved beings know something I don’t — it was never to get better. But it is often still hard to reconcile my initial experience with the quickly corroding ongoing tenure.
Hello again, Everybody.
Brad, thank you for adding your voice to this conversation. Some thoughts:
Moshe, I had a pretty strong reaction to this comment:
“Oy. I have a great repugnance to the concept of “sexual abuse” as it is used today. Today’s insane world uses the term to mean something sexual that someone else thinks is wrong, even if it has nothing to do with the people involved.”
I’m not really sure what you mean by it, but I bristled because I often see/hear men being cold, dismissive or even laugh about sexual abuse. These days, there are men blatantly justifying the use of sexual force, as though it is every man’s right.
“To answer your question – yes, I did ‘hear’ that Alex had had an eye for his female students and probably took advantage of his role as ‘teacher’ to bed them.”
I think that the best of men can have a blind spot about sexual abuse; most men don’t grow up constantly being objectified and dehumanized in that way, but for women it’s a given. Since Alex had a violent nature and do you think it’s possible that he could have raped some of the female students?
Brad, I think I remember reading the story about the woman who Alex and Sharon decided was “a little raped”. That’s exactly the attitude I’m talking about — the dismissive, entitled, dehumanization of the woman. I am digging for something here and maybe it’s because, if sexual abuse was part of “school’s” history, I want people seeking information and reading this blog to know about it. I never saw evidence of it in today’s incarnation, but certainly the elements which create an environment that could lead to sexual abuse are prevalent in today’s “school” — the wearing away at one’s sense of self, the dismissing of student perceptions, the feeding frenzies — as I like to call them — when the entire room turns on one poor soul and picks that person apart … etc. etc. etc.
In the mid 1970s, on the West Coast: Sharon left to go out of town and told some of us women to expect a call from Alex. We could accept his offer to come to our homes for a sexual call. Which he did. He was like a cold fish. It’s abuse of power, which I don’t think I recognized at the time. Also, at one point, mothers were told to put their kids in a daycare run by one of the mothers, who had no clue about taking care of children. This was short term. It was replaced by a day care arrangement which was rather good, but run by a friend of Sharon’s and thus ultimately a form of control. The money pressure even then was fierce. Dues to pay. Huge pressure to sell tickets to the plays, which was the gateway to new recruits. Lack of sleep was a big part of life. Humiliation and ridicule were instruments of control as well, but we probably did not understand it as such. We did know about and read all the work books, many of which I enjoyed. We often talked about G and O and Collins and Nicoll and Orage. Sharon had poetry written by Collin’s wife – which I think I still have. There was pressure on unwed mothers to give their children in adoption to fellow students; many marriages were arranged and broken. This was all **before** the 80’s, **before** the older group migrated to East Coast. It only got worse on the East Coast. Many children of the older students of the 70’s and 80’s are still not recovered from the trauma of growing up in this atmosphere.
Hi Pearl,
I apologize for the delay in my more lengthy response to your post. I have been thinking about what you’ve written here and how heartbreaking it is to know what these assholes were capable of back then. Maybe they still are .. just because I didn’t see that level of abuse in my cult experience, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. I hope that you have supports, people to talk to, a way to process all that happened and heal. Do you? Have you?
I remember hearing about the daycare and the informal “adoptions” that happened shortly after breaking myself out of “school”. It sounded so crazy, so unfathomable … all I could think was how could that happen? That couldn’t happen, could it??? But now with more time and more perspective, as well as coming out of denial that I’d been led around by the nose by “teachers” who clearly could not have cared less about me as a person — I could really see it happening.
So, Pearl, I guess what I’m getting at is that your story, your voice is critical to the purpose of this blog — which is to expose all the “clever insincerity” that draws people into “school” in the first place. Your story might be just the story that someone needs just at the moment they are standing at that “should I stay or should I go” crossroads. I hope that you will continue to comment. I hope we didn’t lose your voice in the gap that fell between your post and my real response. That would be a real loss.
Please let me know. You can always send an email to GSR@cultconfessions.com.
Inhale. Exhale and remember, your voice is important.
GSR
Oh Pearl… If only I could turn back time and put you in touch with a Real Gurdjieff group. The ideas are not for everyone, but at least there would have been no physical or sexual abuse. Thank you for sharing! Your honesty and openness is healing and refreshing!
I clicked my WordPress login in my last comment as opposed to Facebook. It makes no difference but, I realized that I would rather be “known” than an alias and, that is what a Facebook login gives me.
I am who I am.
As I have expressed before, I have no real interest in pushing my particular perceptions and opinions on those who disagree with me. I have tried to avoid arguing that “I am right.” I find this blog interesting and, it is not my intention to “offend” anyone.
However, as GSR has inquired directly how I can write or believe the things that I write, I will respond. I love answering questions, I just don’t care much for having to “justify” myself.
You asked “What is my repugnance about” in regard to my comment – “Oy. I have a great repugnance to the concept of “sexual abuse” as it is used today. Today’s insane world uses the term to mean something sexual that someone else thinks is wrong, even if it has nothing to do with the people involved.”
I understand that I am often way too cryptic or so my wife tells me (whom I met in “school” 35 years ago and, during a brief window of being “not in school,” we got married. Sharon thought it was a bad idea at the time but, we were “not in school,” a concept that is a tad cryptic but, y’all probably know what I mean) so, I shall endeavor to explain what I thought was self explanatory.
It is my experience that, in the world today; the world of news and popular entertainment and media, the term “sexual abuse” is often (“often” is a generalization and should not be construed to mean “always”) used to attack someone, usually a male, for exhibiting behaviors that the “abusee” or friends of the “abusee” deem reprehensible.
To use your example – I do not believe that saying “I wish I were that bicycle seat” should be even remotely compared to sexual abuse.
When a person takes something that offends him or her and puts it in the same category as torture; rape; and other extreme forms of abuse and labels it as such, then the difference between REAL sexual abuse and being offended because some guy told you that you “had a great body” (and no, for those cryptically minded; I am not comparing that to your bicycle story; it is just another example) – becomes obscenely meaningless.
And therefore, I extrapolate from your above admonition to me, the truth of my original statement.
We live in a world where being offended at someone’s remark or even the hard, cold biological fact that boys will indeed be boys and not girls, is cause to rate that kind of behavior as the EXACT SAME as Pearl or Linda Jo’s stories of rape and beatings and other forms of abuse.
All things are not the same. Being offended is not the same as being raped.
I do believe that it is quite wrong (I used the word “insane”) to kowtow to today’s world that intermixes real horror with “being offended” thereby adulterating words such as “sexual abuse” into meaningless nothings.
I stated my opinions and experiences vis a vis Alex and “sexual abuse.”
Just because others had entirely different experiences does not invalidate my own experiences.
Telling someone who got their leg bitten off by a shark that I never saw a shark in those waters does not invalidate either their or my experience.
The experiences stated here vis a vis Alex sure as hell sound like sexual abuse to me.
Nonetheless, particularly based on GSR”s direct response to my statements, I am even more convinced that the way the term “sexual abuse” is used in today’s world makes it very difficult to take anyone’s accusations without a grain of salt.
Lastly, as gratuitous as this advice is, I would strongly recommend that people should stop trying to make “me being offended” into a serious moral crime, as if “you offending me” was in the same category as “you cutting off my head.”
It’s not.
@ Moshe:
“To use your example – I do not believe that saying “I wish I were that bicycle seat” should be even remotely compared to sexual abuse.
When a person takes something that offends him or her and puts it in the same category as torture; rape; and other extreme forms of abuse and labels it as such, then the difference between REAL sexual abuse and being offended because some guy told you that you “had a great body” (and no, for those cryptically minded; I am not comparing that to your bicycle story; it is just another example) – becomes obscenely meaningless.”
So, as I pointed out, you do not understand the emotional and psychic damage a grown man does, when he inflicts this comment on a 14-year-old girl. You did not grow up with having comments like this hurled at you so you only see them as “offensive.” A comment like that is harassment. It is meant to be demeaning and humiliating and it is — especially when the commenter is a grown man and the object of his comment a young girl.
On the scale of sexual abuse, I do not put it on the same level as rape, as you claim I do. My point is that there is a wide range of sexual harm ranging from harassment (as illustrated above) to sexual coercion (like Alex’s expectation the he had the right to “sexual visits”) to out and out rape & violence. The man who harassed me like that (what you call an “offensive comment”) made a 14-year-old girl afraid to do a normal thing like ride her bike around the neighborhood. It wasn’t the offense I took at his callous and ass-holish comment — it was the fear it induced in me and the discomfort I felt about my body and the need I felt to hide my body — it induced a sense of shame. You don’t see this because the hurt is invisible.When you’ve never experienced it, because of your gender, it is easy to call such an incident simply “offensive”; you haven’t been on the receiving end of it and you don’t bear the invisible bruises.
More importantly though, you haven’t responded to either Linda Jo’s comments, or Pearl’s comments. They have reported here those things that I hope you would consider to be “real sexual abuse”. Does it shock you to hear their stories? Do you feel any empathy for them? Could you see the man you knew, Alex, with his violent nature, inflicting so much damage and fear? I come back to my original question: is it possible that there were dirty secrets in the “school” of yore? Things that nobody talked about, just as there are dirty secrets in the “school” of the new millennium?
GSR, you wrote: “I come back to my original question: is it possible that there were dirty secrets in the “school” of yore? Things that nobody talked about, just as there are dirty secrets in the “school” of the new millennium?”
I can’t answer for anyone else, but I’d have to answer no and yes. In my experience, no, there were no such “dirty secrets” — at least, none that I ever heard about. Clearly there were, given all I’ve read about what happened in California, but they weren’t open secrets that everyone had a sense of but didn’t talk about. I mean, sex with Sharon or Alex? Ewww. And nothing about people being talked into giving up their kids or arranged marriages.
Maybe I was just that naive, but when you think about it, pretty much all the people in Boston at that time were from the area. Bob — other than the occasional visit from someone from NYC — was the only person there who knew about California. There wasn’t the local institutional memory because it had all departed.
I think it is hard, and painful, to reconcile the good with the horrid. Of course, I don’t know the absolute truth; I do tend to trust the voices that report that there were horrible abuses, because they get nothing from telling us/we/this blog about those abuses, except some consolation that, maybe, their warning has spared some one else. In fact, in most cases, their voices are callously dismissed, or worse, they are blamed.
And yet, even as I say that, I find it difficult to reconcile that the Robert who initiated a champagne toast for my upcoming wedding and put aside a portion of a class to raise a glass to my growth as a woman, with the Robert who eventually instructed me, through another “teacher”, to “Tell your husband to mind his own business.” And eventually told me on the phone that when my husband did online research into the group, he’d “done a terrible thing to me.” Did he really believe that?
We don’t know if there really was any institutional memory — I think Carol may have been part of the California crew, but who knows. Actually, Janine is also from California.
GSR, reconciling the good and bad in anyone is difficult. And yet, both are there. Perhaps usually there is too little stress in life for the extremes to show quickly. Also, no offense, but it helps to be a little less credulous. For example, just because one “teacher” said that he or she was passing on something from Bob doesn’t mean the person did, or even used the same words and tone. When he said that your husband did a terrible thing, it may have been a combination of general damage control and a sense, no matter how warped, that someone had unnecessarily disrupted your experience. Much of the evil done in the world has been perpetrated with surety that it was the “right” or “moral” or “religious” thing to do — though I have no doubt that he or Fred or any other of the people in charge would be capable of lying or misleading if they thought that’s what school needed. Maybe reconciliation is unnecessary. He could act both ways and may have thought he was doing the right thing in each case.
Hello HDT,
Please see my responses inserted below:
” … reconciling the good and bad in anyone is difficult. And yet, both are there. Perhaps usually there is too little stress in life for the extremes to show quickly. ”
So true that both are there in each and every one of us; however, not everyone acts on the worst in them. Or they recognize a violent/destructive tendency and find a way to channel the energy otherwise. But you have to be honest with yourself in order to do that and you can’t be honest with yourself and still be in “school”. The good and the bad play out with absolutely no consciousness because everyone’s trying looking to “others” for approval; “students” look to “teachers”; and “teachers” look to Robert; and Robert looks to Sharon, who sits on her throne while the plebs scuttle about trying to please her and enable this fantasy she has of being “evolved”. No one is truly looking inward; that process has been skewed and altered by “school’s” aim of an ongoing income stream from lifelong attendees.
You may not agree and I don’t know your experiences. I wonder what your leaving process was like. Maybe it wasn’t a struggle. Maybe you simply decided to do something else and “school” simply said, “It was nice having you visit for a while.” Maybe “school” didn’t hurt you personally, as it does to so many others. Others who leave because they awaken to the fact that school’s “help” long ago became damage. I personally have never seen anyone leave who wasn’t eventually shunned, damaged or demonized in some way.
“Also, no offense, but it helps to be a little less credulous. For example, just because one “teacher” said that he or she was passing on something from Bob doesn’t mean the person did, or even used the same words and tone. When he said that your husband did a terrible thing, it may have been a combination of general damage control and a sense, no matter how warped, that someone had unnecessarily disrupted your experience.”
I don’t know that I’m completely understanding your point here, but I can tell you this – the line “Tell your husband/wife to mind his/her own business” is a standard and pat “school” line used for “meddlesome” unschooled spouses. The message was delivered with the same tone and words that I’ve heard used on several fellow students, whose marriages were suffering at the hands of “school”. And there’s no doubt in my mind that the teacher who delivered the message to me, from Robert, had no concern about any of my experiences. Robert had no concern about my experience either. He saw a $350/month-for-life-income-steam disappearing. “School’s” pretense of concern for my threatened marriage, mental health and crumbling finances had long ago been dropped. So I don’t believe I was being “credulous”. I have plenty of evidence to indicate that my “evolution” was just about the last thing that these assholes were concerned about. I would guess that they were concerned about the decrease in income, that Sharon would be angry, I imagine the “teacher” was concerned that Robert would be angry at her for not “controlling” her “student”.
For the first two and a half years of my tenure, there was a very convincing show of concern for me, which fell away rather quickly after I’d been properly indoctrinated.
The “damage control” is just another level of evil; why does such an evolved institution that lauds the phrase “the truth shall set you free” need such damage control — the kind that demonizes a spouse for being concerned that his wife is being duped by con-men — perhaps the kind of institution that is afraid that the wife will discover her husband is right and finally wake up to the truth that the con-men will ruin her marriage without a second thought.
“Much of the evil done in the world has been perpetrated with surety that it was the “right” or “moral” or “religious” thing to do — though I have no doubt that he or Fred or any other of the people in charge would be capable of lying or misleading if they thought that’s what school needed. Maybe reconciliation is unnecessary. He could act both ways and may have thought he was doing the right thing in each case.”
It’s likely reconciliation is impossible. But I believe that we humans search for it, look for it and — you tell me if I’m wrong — but I sense a search for reconciliation in your search. Otherwise, I’m not sure why you are reading my blog and contributing so much to it. And, though I think this exchange is heated, as so many of them have been over the course of the week, I have always appreciated your contributions — I have always felt that they come from a very honest place; a place from which you are struggling with your experiences in this “school”. I have always appreciated your honest assessment and measured voice, as I readily admit that my voice is not so measured; but equally honest. I am too jaded to think that Robert cares anymore about “the right” or “the moral” or “religious thing”; his kingdom is crumbling and he is panicking. That’s how I see him; you must not have lost your faith in him. You must not have lost your faith in “school”; but you do appear to be searching for something.
I want to repeat, again, that I do appreciate your voice and your contributions, so I hope this exchange does not send you away; but I can’t alter my strong feelings and responses. I can only be honest with you and hope that — in this weird world of cyberspace — you can continue to be honest with me.
I do wish healing for you and everyone who has encountered this strange “school”.
GSR
GSR, I just remembered that although I had started to answer you, a technical glitch prevented everything from appearing. So, I’ll try anew.
“The good and the bad play out with absolutely no consciousness because everyone’s trying looking to “others” for approval; “students” look to “teachers”; and “teachers” look to Robert; and Robert looks to Sharon, who sits on her throne while the plebs scuttle about trying to please her and enable this fantasy she has of being “evolved”. No one is truly looking inward; that process has been skewed and altered by “school’s” aim of an ongoing income stream from lifelong attendees.”
In my time, I wouldn’t have agreed that no one is looking inward. That is virtually impossible for anyone to do all the time, so it’s a matter of on and off at best. However, I completely agree about everyone looking around for approval. As far as creating an ongoing income stream from lifelong attendees, as I think about it, you could say the same thing about many groups, including some mainstream religions. I’m not excusing it, just noting the tendency of people to conflate spirituality and more earthy concerns.
“I wonder what your leaving process was like. Maybe it wasn’t a struggle. Maybe you simply decided to do something else and “school” simply said, “It was nice having you visit for a while.” Maybe “school” didn’t hurt you personally, as it does to so many others. Others who leave because they awaken to the fact that school’s “help” long ago became damage. I personally have never seen anyone leave who wasn’t eventually shunned, damaged or demonized in some way.”
Let’s leave the process at complicated. But I had certainly found an end to its usefulness and what I could see getting from it. And of course suddenly being cut off from people you once knew well is difficult, particularly if they have become a major part of your everyday life. But that is long done and, frankly, I have experienced far more difficult and painful things in my past, and I managed to get over that and come out whole on the other end. I’m not hurting.
“The message was delivered with the same tone and words that I’ve heard used on several fellow students, whose marriages were suffering at the hands of “school”. And there’s no doubt in my mind that the teacher who delivered the message to me, from Robert, had no concern about any of my experiences. Robert had no concern about my experience either. He saw a $350/month-for-life-income-steam disappearing. “School’s” pretense of concern for my threatened marriage, mental health and crumbling finances had long ago been dropped. So I don’t believe I was being “credulous”. I have plenty of evidence to indicate that my “evolution” was just about the last thing that these assholes were concerned about. I would guess that they were concerned about the decrease in income, that Sharon would be angry, I imagine the “teacher” was concerned that Robert would be angry at her for not “controlling” her “student”.”
I have not spoken with Bob for decades, so maybe he changed completely. However, when I knew him, there would likely have been a mix of motivations. I suspect there would have been a combination of worry about not meeting the demands he felt from Sharon for having a certain number of people in the organization but also, rightly or wrongly, a sense that he was providing sound advice. Again, maybe he’s become nothing but a cynic still going through the motions, but the minute you assume that they’re all simply playing people without believing in what they’re doing, I think you lose understanding of what’s really operating. Sharon, Bob, et. al. probably really think what’s going on is real.
“The “damage control” is just another level of evil; why does such an evolved institution that lauds the phrase “the truth shall set you free” need such damage control — the kind that demonizes a spouse for being concerned that his wife is being duped by con-men — perhaps the kind of institution that is afraid that the wife will discover her husband is right and finally wake up to the truth that the con-men will ruin her marriage without a second thought.”
Certainly damage control should be a big flashing neon sign that a group is about to go off the cliff. But, if you posit for a moment that people there really believe their own rhetoric, then they’re assuming that they’re likely to be pursued by a misunderstanding and vindictive world. Certainly there are examples throughout history. They take that, along with the things that happened in California, and unconsciously merge them into part of the self-image as true seekers.
“It’s likely reconciliation is impossible. But I believe that we humans search for it, look for it and — you tell me if I’m wrong — but I sense a search for reconciliation in your search. Otherwise, I’m not sure why you are reading my blog and contributing so much to it. And, though I think this exchange is heated, as so many of them have been over the course of the week, I have always appreciated your contributions — I have always felt that they come from a very honest place; a place from which you are struggling with your experiences in this “school”. I have always appreciated your honest assessment and measured voice, as I readily admit that my voice is not so measured; but equally honest. I am too jaded to think that Robert cares anymore about “the right” or “the moral” or “religious thing”; his kingdom is crumbling and he is panicking. That’s how I see him; you must not have lost your faith in him. You must not have lost your faith in “school”; but you do appear to be searching for something.”
I’m always interested in understanding, and that is particularly true in this case given that I was heavily involved during a relatively short part of my life and that I once cared about the people I knew there. I still do, and seeing a number still in the group makes me sad, as I think they’ve probably completely lost their ways. But I don’t need to reconcile the sincere and insincere in that group because I know people are capable of being both. Maybe it’s just my high tolerance for ambiguity and ambivalence. So, I could like Bob and dislike him at the same time for various reasons. It wasn’t a matter of “faith” in him or in the group.
Whether Bob actually cares or is just going through the motions these days I can’t comment on as I could have no idea.
As far as heated exchanges, this is nothing. Really. 🙂
Good morning, HDT:
Please see my responses below:
“However, I completely agree about everyone looking around for approval.”
Yes, that is the culture of “school” and a the culture of a destructive cult. Is it not the polar opposite of evolution? What is “school” creating, in reality, when what it concocts is a bunch of grown men and women who increasingly seek approval as their tenures go on, via a contrived hierarchy? Was your experience different than mine in that way? What I experienced, and saw all around me, was the process of “becoming”, and seeing others “become” increasingly dependent on the almighty “school”. The longer my tenure, the more “help” I needed. I saw the same in my “classmates”. The truth is, “school” would quickly dismiss “students” who posed questions that reflected real soul searching. Because most of the time, those questions would address discomfort around some “school”-related activity:
recruitment, clever insincerity, wondering where all the money went, wondering who that crazy nutcase Sharon was and why she kicked someone out of “class”; wondering why Robert had been particularly cold to a “classmate” seeking “help”; wondering whether the use of “clever insincerity” was, in fact, hurting a spouse and why “school” really enforces a policy of lying; questioning the “help” given to a fellow classmate; grappling with a “school” twist on an idea that didn’t sit right … on and on and on and on…
Most of the time “school” waved an “evolved” “teacher” hand, and offered a pat phrase: “What is your valuation for ‘school’?”; “Tell your husband/wife to mind his/her business”; “Your husband/wife is jealous.”; “How can you place a value on your ‘evolution’?” “Why are you mixing levels?” on and on and on and on …
“School” actively, and sometimes aggressively, discourages true inner exploration. It discourages it’s students from looking inwards calling certain emotions “negative” and preaching this thing called “non-expression of negative emotions” — but being unable to distinguish “non-expression” from suppression of “negative” emotions. All of this proves to me that “school” dismisses real critical thinking and healthy skepticism. It dismisses its students’ experiences, and gut reactions, and sincere emotions. Because anything that questions the ethos, is inconvenient to “school”. It interrupts the income stream and power play.
What I am saying is that a true inner exploration is not possible given the context that “school” has created. I’m sure that most join up because they have a sincere desire to do that inner exploration; the practice of “self observations” felt sincere in the beginning, but eventually devolved into constant naval gazing as I missed what was going on in the world around me. I saw the same process devolve in my “classmates”. I’m proposing that the inner work that is necessary to “evolve” (whatever that means) is inconvenient to “school”, because its “aim” is to generate income and life-long students, who “need school” and will give up their “only-life things” to feed its delusions of grandeur.
“As far as creating an ongoing income stream from lifelong attendees, as I think about it, you could say the same thing about many groups, including some mainstream religions. I’m not excusing it, just noting the tendency of people to conflate spirituality and more earthy concerns.”
Perhaps, but do all of these religions, and/or other groups require that one lies about his/her bi-weekly activity and then pile on demands, increasing those activities and “necessary” lies as time goes on?
Do those groups actively discourage and even humiliate those who decide to move on and do something else, indicating, or outright saying that “if you leave, you’ll be sorry!” Do those groups claim things like “If you leave you cut yourself off from ‘the source'” ?
Do those groups place themselves higher on the evolutionary scale than an attendee’s spouse, or children, or parents, or friends, or personal passions, or work, or other “only life” demands?
Do those groups charge $350/month and put pressure on those who can’t afford the “tuition” to go out and get another job (or 2, or 3) to pay this tuition. Saying “what is your valuation for school” to justify its demands”
Do those groups demand an increase in group-related activities, claiming that things like recruitment, or Christmas party-planning, are “necessary” for your evolution?
Do those groups require more and more time from participants in concert the length of their tenures?
Are those groups hidden in the shadows?
Do those groups report that income to IRS?
Do those groups harbor an unspoken agenda that participants attend, til death do they part, at the expense of their “only life things” which are — after all — lower on “school’s” evolutionary scale?
If you read Margaret Singer’s book, Cults in Our Midst, she defines the difference between legitimate groups and destructive cults (at some point I wrote a post about her definition specifically). Every single one of the points I made above is included in her definition of what constitutes a destructive cult; these are the tactics that play out in Jehovah’s Witness Groups, Scientology, The Moonies, etc. etc. etc.
“Certainly damage control should be a big flashing neon sign that a group is about to go off the cliff. But, if you posit for a moment that people there really believe their own rhetoric, then they’re assuming that they’re likely to be pursued by a misunderstanding and vindictive world. Certainly there are examples throughout history.”
I can’t claim to know whether “school’s” teachers believe their own rhetoric, or are so cold, that they simply don’t care about the damage they inflict. What I do know is that the “damage control” doesn’t serve its “students”. The “damage control” does hide shady secrets and proliferate dependence. It inflicts damage on “only life things”, like it did to my marriage and several other marriages and un”schooled” relationships. It’s likely that “school’s” upper management and administration do believe the rhetoric, especially Robert, because it’s his job to keep pulling the strings and I can’t understand how anyone could keep such an elaborate con job going unless he believed in it. So, I guess, at the end of the day, I don’t really care if they believe it, or have just become drunk on the control, they plow through lives, leaving behind a trail of destruction. Which, again, is exactly the opposite of what they present at recruitment.
“I’m always interested in understanding, and that is particularly true in this case given that I was heavily involved during a relatively short part of my life and that I once cared about the people I knew there. I still do, and seeing a number still in the group makes me sad, as I think they’ve probably completely lost their ways.”
You may have left before experiencing the worst in “school’s” nature. In which case, I can see why, as you say, you “haven’t decided yet.” I’m in touch with a lot of “disgruntled” ex-“students” and many who left before, or shortly after the two year mark, struggle with the decision for a long time, and are certainly not as vehement in their assessments of “school” as I am.
“But I don’t need to reconcile the sincere and insincere in that group because I know people are capable of being both. Maybe it’s just my high tolerance for ambiguity and ambivalence. So, I could like Bob and dislike him at the same time for various reasons. It wasn’t a matter of “faith” in him or in the group.”
Or maybe you don’t have that need because “school” didn’t hurt you in the way that it hurt others. Personally, I still struggle to reconcile the “school” that pushed and supported me through several job loses, my marriage, my grandmother’s death, my father’s death, but ultimately showed complete dismissal and disregard for most of my “only life things”, but most notably my marriage. Given my experience, I see, and have experienced, an institution that’s very good at targeting weakness, exposing it by offering “help” that will eventually twist into damage, exploiting the weakness and ultimately coldly dismissing personal perceptions, feelings and experiences that don’t serve its greater aim of more income and slave labor retention.
GSR:
“What I experienced, and saw all around me, was the process of “becoming”, and seeing others “become” increasingly dependent on the almighty “school”. The longer my tenure, the more “help” I needed. I saw the same in my “classmates”. The truth is, “school” would quickly dismiss “students” who posed questions that reflected real soul searching. Because most of the time, those questions would address discomfort around some “school”-related activity:”
I would agree.
““School” actively, and sometimes aggressively, discourages true inner exploration. It discourages it’s students from looking inwards calling certain emotions “negative” and preaching this thing called “non-expression of negative emotions” — but being unable to distinguish “non-expression” from suppression of “negative” emotions. All of this proves to me that “school” dismisses real critical thinking and healthy skepticism. ”
Again, agreed. Non-expression of a negative emotion would mean that you don’t let it affect your actions in any way, shape, or form until the hold over you evaporates. It’s a formidable task. But there’s also a fine difference between looking inwards and uselessly indulging.
A bit of history, again — for a long time, there was no emphasis on non-expression of negative emotions Instead, the emphasis was on intentional expression because, so the theory went, people were so twisted up that they repressed everything. That was actually a pretty sound take, I thought. Then one day Sharon declared that it would be non-expression because people were so screwed up that they were misusing intentional expression and needed to “advance” more quickly. From what I saw, expression of negative emotions typically meant getting pissed off at someone. What about all the non-angry emotions? Maybe some actual intentional expression would have been useful to many, as it could force you to see what you were doing. But that didn’t happen.
“It dismisses its students’ experiences, and gut reactions, and sincere emotions. Because anything that questions the ethos, is inconvenient to “school”. It interrupts the income stream and power play.”
It does, but again I would disagree in part with your interpretation. It was more fear of shaking up things and finding out that no one was going anywhere. It comes back to all of them buying into what they were saying. To focus on the money and “power play” is to I think attribute too much awareness and control. In practice, it may come out the same way (your mention of “its ‘aim’ is to generate income and life-long students”), but the psychological path is different. Sharon I’m sure likes the money but in the context of being “evolved.” Bob probably does quite well enough for himself through his business interests. I even remember a time when he was lamenting in a half-hearted way Sharon hitting *him* up for another very large chunk of money. It’s just to point out that he’s being played as much as everyone else, and in some ways far more so.
“Perhaps, but do all of these religions, and/or other groups …”
I’m addressing the whole list at the same time. I wasn’t suggesting a parity. Just observing the sad human history of religion and spirituality being turned into a mechanism for generating a life-long flock of milk cows.
“I can’t claim to know whether “school’s” teachers believe their own rhetoric, or are so cold, that they simply don’t care about the damage they inflict. What I do know is that the “damage control” doesn’t serve its “students”.”
You can never know for sure about other people, but its my now-old perception that they did. Certainly damage control doesn’t serve anyone else. It shows how the group runs on a river of constant fear and ego — you know, those giants of inner weakness that they talked about? Oh, the irony.
“So, I guess, at the end of the day, I don’t really care if they believe it, or have just become drunk on the control, they plow through lives, leaving behind a trail of destruction. Which, again, is exactly the opposite of what they present at recruitment.”
Makes perfect sense. If two roads take you to Newark, you still wind up in Newark.
“You may have left before experiencing the worst in “school’s” nature. In which case, I can see why, as you say, you “haven’t decided yet.” ”
Ah, you’re reading far too much into the name. The literal truth is that when I was going to leave a first comment, I noticed all the unusual names and had nothing particularly esoteric or apt, so it was “I haven’t decided on something more clever.” That is its total extent.
I experienced some bad stuff, but I can only blame myself for that, as I chose to go along. In that sense, I’m similar to GMM. And I did have some interesting experiences, learn some things, and put myself into circumstances where I could shake loose a lot of silliness. But I’m not at war with the group, because after so many years I’d really be at war with myself, and that isn’t particularly fun or useful.
“Or maybe you don’t have that need because “school” didn’t hurt you in the way that it hurt others. Personally, I still struggle to reconcile the “school” that pushed and supported me through several job loses, my marriage, my grandmother’s death, my father’s death, but ultimately showed complete dismissal and disregard for most of my “only life things”, but most notably my marriage. Given my experience, I see, and have experienced, an institution that’s very good at targeting weakness, exposing it by offering “help” that will eventually twist into damage, exploiting the weakness and ultimately coldly dismissing personal perceptions, feelings and experiences that don’t serve its greater aim of more income and slave labor retention.”
This is one reason why I find it important to recognize some degree of sincerity on the parts of Bob, Sharon, et. al., albeit in a twisted way. They put school above everything else and thought that everyone else should want to. They thought they were actually being helpful when they did that. Combine that with being constantly riddled with ego, fear, and the relentless sense of emptiness and meaninglessness that would be the result and it explains a lot. Reconciliation can only come when you understand the people. When you do, you may think that they did a lot of bad things — and they did — but you might also find yourself pitying them. They’re still tied up in the whole mess, running about a women with literally insatiable appetites who still clings to physical vanity and tells herself that she’s becoming psychic. All that inward cringing and fear of disapproval. Seeing past spouses around, the new ones they’ve apparently been assigned, and wondering how they’re going to emotionally survive the next scolding. How incredibly sad.
“How incredibly sad.” Indeed.
HDT – You put it so much better than I. Well done.
I would only take issue with your making allowances for Bob and Sharon, et al’s incredibly credulous lives that turned Gurdjieff’s “Work” into the kind of cult that they preached against 35 odd years ago.
Not that I hold Gurdjieff in such high regard but, at least he was a man of his times who remained consistent to the kind of “schools” that abounded in his age.
Bob and Sharon knew better. It is indeed sad that they chose to “embrace the dark side…”
GMM:
“I would only take issue with your making allowances for Bob and Sharon, et al’s incredibly credulous lives that turned Gurdjieff’s “Work” into the kind of cult that they preached against 35 odd years ago.
Not that I hold Gurdjieff in such high regard but, at least he was a man of his times who remained consistent to the kind of “schools” that abounded in his age.
Bob and Sharon knew better. It is indeed sad that they chose to “embrace the dark side…””
Well, they may have known better at one time. But such a fall is usually the result not of one clear decision, but many small ones. It’s the series of compromises made to enable what is more important. That is the tragedy of the end justifying the means, because the means are the really important thing. The end is an excuse. I think if you asked them if they were running a cult and could get a straight answer, they’d still say no. How could it be, right? You know that old school saying: things turn into their opposites over time. I’ve found that insight to be remarkably accurate in life. By the time you’re facing the opposite direction, you generally don’t realize that you’ve moved.
This whole thread is so compelling to me, mostly because people have really dug into their own experiences and points of view to hash out what to make of this group and its leaders. The back and forth and arguments could almost all come from within the same brain, thinking about the group from varying perspectives. I have struggles without how much I “should” detest, pity, rail against or even be grateful for the group and my experiences within it. If my impression is correct, I come closest to HDT’s view – regretting the negative results these people have brought into the world while more or less pitying them personally. Even if they spend most of their waking hours enjoying their sense of power and elevation, there must be moments late at night when the terror grips them that their rapidly evaporating years are being spent in service of illusion and delusion.
One other thing strikes me about this thread in general, and in particular the effort by HDT and others to understand the group leaders as flawed, and perhaps desperately miserable human beings. I’m imagining myself as someone invested in the group, whether a leader or simply a devoted student. If I came to this or another site and read the more confrontational words of those who clearly detest the group, justified as they are, I think my defense mechanisms would kick in and I would quickly be shielded from any real consideration of the matter by the firm conviction that the writers were lying, or deluded, or had gone crazy or whatever. But the words of someone with a more measured response, free of condemnation, might not raise the defenses as powerfully. Perhaps these words could burrow their way in and plant a seed of doubt that could lead me to make a more clear-eyed evaluation of my situation.
This reminds me of something I was talking about with some folks at a recent dinner gathering. The group as it currently operates really has no power beyond their ability to mystify and present themselves as elevated possessors of special knowledge. Once de-mystified, the group has no power whatsoever. In a sense, building it up as a nefarious cult serves to further its mythology – not as they would wish, to be sure; not in kind, but in magnitude. It inflates them with a different kind of hot air than that with which they inflate themselves, but they still end up inflated. Seeing them as deluded and pitiable human beings serves to diminish them – not belittle, but just bring them back down to earth. When it comes right down to it, they have no magical powers of hypnotism or clairvoyance. They are simply people who drive to an old mill, move in circles and talk. Once you see the smoke and mirrors, the magic trick loses its effect.
Wow, so much to respond to. Thanks, everyone, for keeping this conversation going. Here’s an attempt to respond to several comments:
@ HDT:
“In my time, I wouldn’t have agreed that no one is looking inward. That is virtually impossible for anyone to do all the time, so it’s a matter of on and off at best. However, I completely agree about everyone looking around for approval.”
I am proposing that in the context of everyone looking for approval, all the time, it is impossible to look inward. The environment doesn’t leave room for authentic and sincere self-reflection. In my experience, the environment morphed from discouraging the self-trust necessary to do such work, to being hostile towards it.
” … but the minute you assume that they’re all simply playing people without believing in what they’re doing, I think you lose understanding of what’s really operating. Sharon, Bob, et. al. probably really think what’s going on is real.”
Of course, I don’t know what is really going on inside of Bob/Robert or Sharon. I can only respond to what I experienced, saw and heard. Perhaps at some point, these people truly believed they were “evolving”. I had very limited exposure to Queen Sharon (thank God). She would be swept into the Boston branch “classroom” by her entourage, as though royalty and seated up front to expound her wisdom — her wisdom included some incomprehensible rambling and pointed and cruel humiliations and then the entourage swept her out. To me she looked and sounded a mental patient who’d escaped from Framingham State Hospital and that in and of itself, should have been the screaming siren — this is a cult, this is a cult, run away — She showed no capacity of being evolved or insightful or capable of the slightest human kindness.
Robert, on the other hand, could be both kind and insightful and incredibly cruel. Does he believe he’s contributing to the betterment of society? I don’t know, but how else does he keep the charade going. I don’t dismiss that he bought in long ago; in my better moments, I feel pity for the younger version of Bob. I imagine at some point he was a precocious and intelligent young man, with aspirations and dreams, seeking meaning, wanting to connect to something real in this Barnum and Baily world. He could have done a number of amazing things had he — instead of joining a cult — become a professor, or a policy leader, or an authentic spiritual leader. Probably the Bob or yore didn’t dream about selling mattresses by day and leading a cult by night. Or maybe he did. I’m guessing not, though, and he’s now lost many decades to this fallacy. So it’s far easier to demonize those who challenge his fantasy, than face those, shoulda, woulda, coulda decades.
So do I see them as simply playing roles? No, nothing is that simple. And the end result of believing their own lies is that they have “become” empty, cold and institutionalized liars, who do not have the real capacity to care about my experience, or anyone else’s experience for that matter — least of all the meddlesome spouses, friends, family members who question “school’s” proletariat and impede its “aim”.
Please excuse my ailing memory, HDT, but I believe you were in the Boston group, in the early to mid 80s, yes? You probably addressed this question somewhere within this long string, but it all starts to squish together in my mind.
“… but again I would disagree in part with your interpretation. It was more fear of shaking up things and finding out that no one was going anywhere. It comes back to all of them buying into what they were saying. To focus on the money and “power play” is to I think attribute too much awareness and control. ”
I think the fear of shaking things up in such a way that reveals “school” as a sham, the getting drunk on power over another, the need to keep income flowing in is all part of the twisted psychology that would inspire Robert and/or Sharon to dismiss anything un-“schooled” as trivial. And be cold to the damage they inflict, as they impart their “wisdom” on the plebs — with “help” for their little insignificant lives. I didn’t say they were aware of their motivations or in control of themselves. As far as I can tell, people who need to lie as much as they do, are motivated by fear — fear is in the driver’s seat. Too bad for them. But, worse for those who believe in these two charlatans.
” … Bob probably does quite well enough for himself through his business interests. I even remember a time when he was lamenting in a half-hearted way Sharon hitting *him* up for another very large chunk of money. It’s just to point out that he’s being played as much as everyone else, and in some ways far more so.”
Well, from the way I saw Robert/Bob beam at Sharon in her two crazy visits to Boston, I would agree with your assessment … and yes, he’s being played far more than the others as the second-in-command. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, the legacy left behind will be lies and damage inflicted on others through his embracing and extensive use of “clever insincerity”.
“Makes perfect sense. If two roads take you to Newark, you still wind up in Newark.”
Yes, well the road to Newark was initially presented as a possible cruise to the Bahamas, if you followed “the rules”. It is the ongoing deception and false presentation that distinguishes this group as a damaging cult. The purpose of this blog to expose that deception.
“… they may have known better at one time. But such a fall is usually the result not of one clear decision, but many small ones. It’s the series of compromises made to enable what is more important. That is the tragedy of the end justifying the means, because the means are the really important thing. ”
Yes, the means are the important thing and the series of small decisions appear to be made in the context of fear … fear that “school’s” seedy past will be exposed, fear that the current “students” will realize that there’s no “evolution” to be had within the hallowed halls, fear of losing power over the “students”, fear that the income stream will dry up and how will Sharon afford her lifestyle with all of her expensive real estate, etc. etc. etc.
@ Charlie Chaplin:
First thanks for chiming in; as you say, and like HDT, you contribute a more measured voice to this conversation. I can’t muster up a measured voice at this point. So I am grateful others can provide.
Speaking of which …
“I have struggles without how much I “should” detest, pity, rail against or even be grateful for the group and my experiences within it.”
I do believe that we “schooled” all struggle with all the above feelings, responses, reactions. And that is why I try to welcome all of those voices in this blog. It speaks to the need to reconcile that I believe we humans have in general. It may not be possible to truly reconcile the horrid with the sublime that exists within “school’s” walls and probably within each and every human being, but if we are aware of the struggle, if we discuss the struggle, if the struggle is out in the open, we have a better chance of making the highest and best choice. If the struggle is hidden in the shadows, if we are in denial of that struggle, we are at the mercy of the worst in us. I should say, I know that I personally still struggle with all of the above-mentioned reactions to my “school” experience — I rail against, I pity those still attending, I feel gratitude for the “school”-assisted growth I made during my tenure, I am forever grateful to Jeanine for her support during the time my father was dying, etc. All of those voices need to speak out and I want this forum to be one place where they can speak out.
“… Even if they spend most of their waking hours enjoying their sense of power and elevation, there must be moments late at night when the terror grips them that their rapidly evaporating years are being spent in service of illusion and delusion.”
Ashes to ashes … the question to ask yourself is how do you want to spend your precious years on this planet, so full of beauty and wonder. Do you want a delusion to suck you dry? Or do you want to drink in the beauty and struggle innate in your life and live as best you can?
“If I came to this or another site and read the more confrontational words of those who clearly detest the group, justified as they are, I think my defense mechanisms would kick in and I would quickly be shielded from any real consideration of the matter by the firm conviction that the writers were lying, or deluded, or had gone crazy or whatever. But the words of someone with a more measured response, free of condemnation, might not raise the defenses as powerfully. Perhaps these words could burrow their way in and plant a seed of doubt that could lead me to make a more clear-eyed evaluation of my situation.”
Could be. But who knows, someone else seeking information may need to see/hear the more angry confrontational voices in order to access the justified wrath (as “school” is so fond of saying) within him or her self. I want to welcome them all — I want those who find this blog to see/hear/read all the sides. That way they have the opportunity to choose for themselves that which rings true to them. I heard tell recently of a current “student” who allegedly broke “the rules” to read this blog — his reaction, “She got all that material from school.” If he really did read this blog, I have no idea what stories he spun in his head, but his interpretation is what it is … it is what he needs it to be and apparently he still needs to believe in “school”.
“When it comes right down to it, they have no magical powers of hypnotism or clairvoyance. They are simply people who drive to an old mill, move in circles and talk. Once you see the smoke and mirrors, the magic trick loses its effect.”
We can’t say this enough and I will repeat “SCHOOL” HAS ABSOLUTELY NO POWER EXCEPT THE POWER WE GIVE IT BY KEEPING IT’S SECRETS.
“…building it up as a nefarious cult serves to further its mythology – not as they would wish, to be sure; not in kind, but in magnitude. It inflates them with a different kind of hot air than that with which they inflate themselves, but they still end up inflated.”
I have two reactions to this comment:
1) I think you are right in that we don’t want to inflate “school” and further its mythology.
2) Those who paint “school” as a nefarious cult do so because that is what they experienced. Maybe I should simply speak from my own experiences — which is that — ultimately — at the end of the day, “school” had no concern for my well-being and from what I witnessed has no concern for the well-being of anyone who attends — their families, their jobs, their children, their passions, their time, their energy is considered expendable — only life things — and that is odious, nefarious and needs to be exposed. I want those out there seeking information about the allegedly “evolved” group they’ve encountered, or perhaps the bi-weekly meetings their loved one is attending, will eventually attempt to devour their lives in service to the greater “aim” — which I continue to believe is income generation and retention of slave labor retention. “School” is all about Sharon and bolstering her fantasy of royalty. “School” is not about the evolution of the masses.
Good points GSR. I was looking at one purpose of the blog, and one possible audience and its potential impact on them. I did not account in my comments for another important purpose – a forum for people to tell their stories. I am certainly grateful for this forum, for both my own expression and exposure to the experiences of others.
I still think potential recruits need not necessarily run away. To me, the ideal scenario is for them to go through the five meetings and the one month free “experiment”, then leave before handing over any cash. Perhaps they could even contribute to this forum with whatever they are able to glean in their short time regarding the friends we’ve left behind. They might be exposed to ideas that they find useful. More importantly, the time spent on them by recruiters is time not spent on other potential targets. My main point was that this group poses no threat to someone who encounters them armed with information, which you are performing an important public service by providing with this blog, showing the wizard behind the curtain to actually be a funny man with a mustache, or beard as the case may be,
“To me, the ideal scenario is for them to go through the five meetings and the one month free “experiment”, then leave before handing over any cash. Perhaps they could even contribute to this forum with whatever they are able to glean in their short time regarding the friends we’ve left behind. They might be exposed to ideas that they find useful …”
They would actually be like secret agents … because of course “school” wouldn’t want those in the know to be there … I wonder what Robert would do if a potential recruit said to him, “Hey, I’ve read all the blogs and I know that eventually you will charge me $350/month, expect me to sign on for life, usurp my holiday season with ‘school’s’ Christmas party, start telling me that when I allow my family or work obligations to interfere with ‘school’ demands that I’m ‘mixing level’s’, and don’t want to deal with that — but I’ve also heard the ideas are interesting and I want my free five-week offer.”
That scene makes me laugh just thinking about it. I guess the new recruit would have to hide that s/he is in the know … I wonder if any of those ideas would have the same power if the young student entered his/her tenure knowing what we know. It would be an interesting experiment, for sure!
This kinda brings me back to the idea of writing a musical called “school” — I’d love to write the “I know you’re a cult, but I want to give it a good girl scout try anyway” song. Could be very cathartic. I did see Book of Morman last week and — I must admit — I don’t think I could top it.
Wow. Hi Pearl and thanks for your comment. I’m too tired to really take it in now, but will come back to it soon. I think it important that we more recent east-coast “ex-students” know about these things — they are the root of “school”, which is rotting at the core.
Hi Pearl,
So glad you posted a comment here on GSR about Horn’s “house calls” and “visitations” — which I can confirm and explain, for sure, not to mention all the other unspeakable crimes the psycho-pseudo “teacher” perpetrated and Sharon perpetuated, “strongly advised” and advocated, rationalized and justified as “HIS most important ‘work on being’!” (Believe it, or not!)
All former and current “school” members, along with our friends and family members, are supposed to be hiding, lying and pretending,”under the code of silence,” or behind “the wall of silence,” secrecy and censorship, repression and denial, “school” rules and injunctions, coercive customs, manipulation and intimidation tactics. Just forget about that dirty racket, scam, hoax and con game – unbelievable nightmare and crying shame – conjured up decades ago in the Sonoma hills and S.F. bay area by that psychopathic con man and sex offender, criminal fraud and cult leader, founder and director of all those sadistic and perverted games, crime and punishment programs, slave labor ops, prisons and playhouses, fascist regimes and so-called “Fourth Way schools,” “esoteric groups,” “boot camps” and “work retreats” – including Jan Mogensen’s former “school” in Amsterdam.
Unfortunately, Alex Horn got a big kick, buzz and bang out of being a real jerk and juvenile delinquent, bully and bullshitter, bulldog and bulldozer, “fighting boys” and “fucking girls”. (The bully’s favorite word “fuck” was synonymous with his favorite form of abuse, physical and sexual violence: forced sex, incest and rape, fellatio and sodomy, assault and battery.) Many of his “new girls in ‘school'” wound up in a hospital and/or an early grave – like my college friend, Susan, who committed suicide – after Horn raped her in his “office”/bedroom in the Men’s House (Summer, 1970). Others got married for protection from the devil, stalking and raping “girls” in the bay area.
In fact, I married Bob Klein for protection from the relentless stalker and serial rapist. I was B.K.’s first wife. When our beautiful boy was born, Aug. 30, 1973, Bob named him Abraham David. Jeannine Sapere was Bob’s second wife, and they had two children, born about a year apart, during the mid ’70s. Jeannine is also Sam Sapere ‘s younger sister; Sam and I have been happily married soul-mates and parents of a big, extended family for almost 25 years.
In 2010, Sam and I published the bare bones and “first chapter” of A little Survivor’s Handbook, including Horn’s first dismal play and failure at the box office, together with all the newspaper articles we could find in the S.F. Public Library. Shortly thereafter, Sam and I both came forward on the esotericfreedom blog, which was recently high-jacked and “disappeared” by several “true believers,” infected and indoctrinated, duped and deceived followers, “leaders” and “teachers” in Boston and New York, including several of my former friends and classmates, who slaved away and supported, financed and constructed Horn’s first playhouse, Everyman Theatre, and so-called “Fourth Way school for higher consciousness” (which mysteriously caught fire and burned down) in the S.F. Mission dist. (Does anyone know the exact date of this event?)
Last year (thanks to GSR and Brad), we posted a chapter from Thomas Farber’s book, Tales for the Son of My Unborn Child, a rare first-hand account of Alex Horn’s “clever insincerity” and manipulation, recruitment and intimidation tactics. (See: “Getting Religion?” on our Survivor’s Handbook.)
Well, Pearl, that’s it for tonight. Thanks, again, for posting. I’d love to speak with you and compare notes. I’m always open to conversing and corresponding with other “school” survivors. Please contact me: libertybelle@toknow.us
Quite the horrific set of stories from both Pearl and Linda Jo. Far from anything I saw, which is not to dismiss it. I remember seeing Sharon trying to get Alex to restrain his temper, but perhaps the real point was to avoid the attention they had clearly received in California. Good lord, what a waste of the time and human potential (and lives) of so many.
Linda Jo, I knew your son for a number of years. He seemed like a good kid and I had no idea that he had a different mother. I have thought of him and his step-siblings from time to time, wondering whether they escaped relatively whole. I hope they did.
Hello Linda Jo, Thank you for courageously posting your story here. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it here. It is so important that people seeking information about “school” know these stories. They can then think about their own experiences, compare them to the “school” days of yore and trust their own perceptions as to whether what is told here is “all lies and slander” — “school’s'” pat line for anyone who criticizes it on any level.
I do remember when I first starting “breaking the rules” and seeking information online thinking this is too bizarre to be true — the allegations of baby swapping and sinister predatory sexual stalking were so beyond the pale. And then came the thought, who could make this shit up? And then came all the different voices all corroborating these crazy stories from different parts of the country. And then the more time I had away from “school”, the more my critical thinking facilities returned and I started to see more and more the dismissive attitude towards each student’s personal experience that begins to rear up after a couple of years of indoctrination.
When I left “school” my finances were a mess, my marriage was strained, my mental health was teetering on the edge of breakdown. Thank God for my husband and his insistence on confronting me. But believe you me, the enlightened beings who run the institution had absolutely no concern for my marriage or mental health or finances. Those things were “only life things” insignificant on “school’s” self-determined higher evolutionary scale. When I was able to look back more critically, I realized how I’d watched “school” dismiss the damage it does to students’ lives over and over — “that’s not because of ‘school”, some teacher would say in response to some poor soul seeking “help” to a school-related problem (say a spouse feeling neglected during the holiday season). “Maybe if you were working harder on yourself …” school would inevitably determine. Or “school” would use the pat phrase, “What is your valuation for ‘school” … ” i.e. are you willing to trade in your insignificant marriage, or job, or time to yourself, or passion, or relationship to your kids for the illustrious aim of contributing your money, time and energy to the effort of propping up Sharon’s fantasy of woman-of-higher-life-form.
Given my experiences, I have come to the conclusion that the many stories told about sexual abuse and arranged marriages and forced adoptions and baby swapping are not only likely, but probable. You have no idea how sick to my stomach that makes me and I welcome anyone who can provide evidence to the contrary to do so. So far the only countering voice to those accusations I’ve heard is the memory of hearing “school’s” teachers repeat the phrase “all lies and slander” again and again, which — as you can imagine — no longer holds much weight with me. I happen to know that with the creation of cult confessions that “school” has been forced to come up with new and creative lies and misinformation about me, to dismiss everything I’ve written here. So what would stop it from telling lies about the past.
Dear Readers, you have your own experiences and ability to think critically. I have presented my very strong opinion based on my experiences. Make your own assessment and may the force be with you.
Thank you GSR for all that you have done to make the truth available and for this forum to talk about this! You are doing God’s work.
Dearest UL, Out of respect and admiration, I feel compelled to comment on your response above to Pearl, with a word of caution to us all.
UpperLobby on April 4, 2014 at 5:10 pm
“Oh Pearl… If only I could turn back time and put you in touch with a Real Gurdjieff group. The ideas are not for everyone, but at least there would have been no physical or sexual abuse….”
My dear friend, your comment triggers my concern because perhaps many of us share a tendency that links our fantasies to denial. After all we’ve been through, after all that has been written and read and all the stories we’ve heard, I would hope that we might recognize that this voice is naive and seems not to be able to remember what is known.
Dorothy, there is no omnipotent wizard in the Land of Oz. Time travel would not help us find a perfect G group free of abuse. That is a fantasy. This voice is full of wishful thinking and can lead us astray if it is not acompanied by a watchful eye that has a grounded and mature concern for our total well being. Perhaps it is the voice of our inner child with a yearning for recognition and spiritual aspiration. That child needs the hand, voice amd vigilance of a wise adult.
There is no “Real Gurdjieff group” out there past, present or future, that is an oasis free from the trials and suffering of human nature. There is no land of pure ideas on this plane. G’s and O’s gifts were in teaching and creating of a system that draws together ideas from many sources adding their insights. The sexual abuse, and the attitudes that make that possible, the abuse of power and attitudes that uphold and justify it are also part of the Gurdjieff and Ouspensky legacy. They are part of our cultural karma. These tendencies can be found wherever humans are. The impulses toward liberation and oppression, creation and destruction dwell in us all.
Our experiences with our teachers, the good and bad of it all is part of the 4 th demension or time-body of G’s school and subject to recurrence because we are not sufficiently awake. We are not yet sufficiently free from the habit energy that holds destructive attitudes and abusive in place, personally or collectively. These conversations are an important step toward recognition and freedom.
Let us never again abandoned the child of our aspirations to that which would seduce it into harms way. Let us not allow the desire for recognition, and union to be misguided and taken advantage of by teachers or leaders of any sort. Let us also not shut down nor abandon our aspirations but truly learn to be our own good shepard, recognizing the lambs and the wolves for what and who they are.
May we continue to awaken. May we deepen our insights and courage, and increase our capacity for love and right action.
When I said “It only got worse on the East Coast,” I was speaking generally. Perhaps it got worse because I was in such a long time. I am also now a long time out, and grateful to the now defunct Esoteric Freedom blog which was an eyeopener for me, in the same way this blog may be for others. It is very difficult, however, to mend the large chunks of time in which I was not present to my children’s lives. We keep working on it. My message to anyone still in would be, how much time are you spending in quality time with your kids?
Hi Pearl,
Welcome back and thank you for your comment.
I often say that the un-“schooled” spouses are the people who suffer the most, because they are in the dark and wondering why the person they married is lying or just acting so strangely. The children of the “schooled” is another story, a deeper layer of hurt. I believe I am seeing the consequences of “school” in some children I know right now and it’s pretty heartbreaking. I am so glad that you brought them up. If there are any parents out there reading this because you are worried about your kids and “school’s” cold dismissal of them as “only life things”, remember, nothing replaces the time you miss with them. You don’t get it back. But you can begin to be present to them now. Put the time, energy and attention in them instead of letting “school” steal it — and your time with them — from you.
BTW, don’t give up on the Esoteric Freedom blog. It is only in hiding temporarily.
>George Moshe Murray
>HDT
“Gentlemen, let us take our cigars and brandy into the great study by the fireplace and leave these women to cackle amongst themselves about some harmless sexual pranks! Wish some chicks would drive by me and comment on the bulge in my pocket heh, heh!”
I think the thing that bothers me about your comments, and I thank you for having the courage to at least discuss these sometimes-difficult topics, is your casual dismissal of some of the offensive incidents and experiences.
Of course there are different degrees of physical abuse. A punch is very different from ruffling someone’s hair. But what if it is unwanted and unwelcome? (“Hey, grow a couple!” “Man up!”) Sure.
What if it was your daughter? She’s perhaps home for semester break. “Oh, honey, the nice young men on campus were only complimenting you.” Or, “Well, dear one, you might be right, but you might be wrong too. I never heard of anything like that happening at your school.”
What I’m not hearing is the empathy for the pain and suffering – real or imagined. Your distancing yourself from the abuse by saying, “Well, I never witnessed anything like that.” is in itself offensive.
Comments can be a form of psychological rape.
To quote an anonymous commenter on another blog: “Still, there was moments of verbal sexual harassment, what cult experts call “love bombing” followed by the expected guilt trip, and overall abusive language and behavior. All of this was tolerated because it was understood that he was handicapped, decrepit and senile. Still, it felt psychologically horrible to endure. The group’s concessions and apologizes for him aren’t accepted by me because they all felt like enablers, purposely turning the other way.”
Milton Erickson, the great hypnotherapist of the 20th century did a lot of work with amputees who suffered from “phantom limb” pain. Oh, the pain is real all right. And to deny the patient their experience of their pain is insulting.
(BTW, Please check out this amazing book by Dr. Judith Bendheim Guedalia, A Neuropsychologists Journal: Interventions and “Judi-isms” Dr. Guedalia discusses her own unique style of working with patients and includes the amazing work of Milton Erickson. See link here:
http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/books/book-reviews/title-a-neuropsychologists-journal-interventions-and-judi-isms/2013/02/20/0/?print
Sorry to bore you if you are still reading, but… Who will answer for the abused, who will answer for the oppressed and tormented. It seems to me that there are many people trying to heal from their experiences – from way back in the Horn days as well as the present. Better to say nothing than to deny those who are hurting their chance to heal.
I find your reply and attitude offensive, dismissive, and not based on any reality that I inhabit or perceive. Would you have objected if I had put into quotes something about hysterical women? I certainly object to the gross stereotype you’ve invoked.
You talk about the “casual dismissal of some of the offensive incidents and experiences.” I called the experiences of Pearl and Linda Jo horrific. Maybe you consider that dismissive. I don’t.
As for making the point that things seemed significantly different in my experience, as I previously said, that doesn’t invalidate anyone else’s experience. Nor do their experiences invalidate mine, and that must be a two-way street, or it is nothing but bullshit.
GSR has specifically asked me at times to fill in what I know of the historical background. That is exactly what I did. As I’ve also stated before, my guess is that perhaps Sharon and Alex were trying to keep things moderate enough that they would avoid the same publicity they received in California.
Did I see things that were screwed up. Absolutely, including the alcoholism, general ineptitude, robotic use of jargon when people pretended to understand what they didn’t, a frequently appalling lack of insight into others shown by so-called teachers (when Sharon declared that she was becoming clairvoyant, I was bemused) — I could go on, but there are many reasons I stopped being associated with the group. That did not include sexual abuse or impropriety that GMM says was a known secret. Perhaps others at my time heard of it. I didn’t, and had I heard such things, I suspect my departure from the group would have happened far more quickly.
Thank you for the post–
I’m unclear about a few things.
Upper Lobby:
“What I’m not hearing is the empathy for the pain and suffering – real or imagined.”
Empathy for imagined pain and suffering? I don’t understand.
Upper Lobby:
“Comments can be a form of psychological rape.”
Do you mean specific harassment type comments about a female’s sexuality? Intimidation?
Upper Lobby:
To quote an anonymous commenter on another blog: “Still, there was moments of verbal sexual harassment, what cult experts call “love bombing” followed by the expected guilt trip, and overall abusive language and behavior.
I thought “Love bombing” is constant attention and affection to make a new member feel welcome and part of the group. I never heard it used in an overtly sexual context. Just a point of information.
Brad
> Noah’s Dove
Thank you for watching over me. And you probably know how I feel about the beginnings of Gurdjieff’s teaching and his odd sexual behavior. But there are/were(?) some Real people out there in the Gurdjieff tradition whom I have met. To be sure, they have a hard time explaining Mr. G! But they were genuine, kind and scandal free. It’s not the path for everyone, but if someone is attracted to the books and ideas, there are some sane avenues of study.
GSR – as I can’t actually click on “Reply” on your comments, whatever I post in response does not follow that to which I am trying to respond. Hence, I’ll just put in a new Reply…
I do apologize for continuing to reply, but you are preying upon my weakness as a pedant…. Sigh.
But, it’s either explanations and answers or, as with my quote from Puck, songs and poems that are triggered by your responses such as:
“It’s a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack” or,
“I’m sorry for the way things are in China
I’m sorry things ain’t what they used to be
But more than anything else
I’m sorry for myself…”
There are more cliches and songs running through my mind and therefore, I suspect that my pedantry is the lesser of the two evils…
I do not believe that your definitions and your descriptions of your traumatic experiences vis a vis harassment and other forms of non violent sexual behaviors are good examples in trying to compare them to real sexual or other violent abuse.
In my humble opinion, you are viewing the reports of Alex’s real violence and real sexually abusive behavior and linking them to the real trauma that “school” has inflicted upon you and associating these real events with other damages that you felt you have endured and thereby claiming that these other people have hurt you in a relatively “equal” manner which you believe that, as a male, I cannot possibly understand.
I disagree.
When a popular, charismatic athletic classmate bullied me and stole my squirt gun in gym class in 6th grade solely for the purpose of exerting his superiority over me and making me feel like shit – I don’t believe that this qualified in the remotest way in comparison to if he would have beaten the crap out of me in public.
When a young, male clothing salesman asked my mother when fitting me for pants when I was about 10 or 12 years old “What has he got back there?” referring to my fat ass, which made me self conscious and unhappy about my fat ass for much of my teenage life, I don’t think that falls into any kind of category of harassment or abuse. I strongly suspect that he didn’t ever think of that comment or of me as a kid ever again in his life. Or the fact that I compared myself unfavorably to this good looking, well dressed salesman in some obscure fashion for a long time afterwards.
When another school bully sneaked up behind me and spun me around while I was peeing in the floor urinal so that I ended up being exposed and briefly peeing on the floor, giving me a case of “bashful kidneys” that lasted well into my adult years where I found it difficult to pee in front of anyone (until, probably sometime in my 40’s when it didn’t matter anymore), I did not hold that bully responsible my for my “condition” which obviously traumatized me in some fashion.
When I gave some flowers I picked to a pretty girl in elementary school and she made a public show of being offended and embarrassing me while in private she told me how much she liked them, I don’t think she was out to traumatize me although that is exactly what she did, making me very confused about what the hell was going on in a girl’s mind for much of my life… (humorous, but true)
I do not believe that there is a woman with whom I have had an intimate relationship as a young man who was not somehow harassed or demeaned by other boys; men; or fellow women several times in her life – sometimes by genuine sexual abuse.
And, I don’t know of many men who were not, at some point, “traumatized” by some girl or woman in a most embarrassing and memorable way – through no fault of their own.
I would suggest that you ask your husband or other male friends if this is true.
I would humbly suggest that just because YOU don’t place the offhand comment about having a “fat ass” as nearly as traumatic as your “bicycle seat” only means that men and women are different and different things hurt them in ways that the other does not understand.
Really GSR?
Everybody understands embarrassment and harassment. I suspect that young boys understand it a hell of a lot more than young girls in that young girls tend to be insensitive to the extreme regarding the bumbling, inappropriate affections that young boys are demonstrating. And, it used to get worse when we were teenagers.
(Nowadays? I’m not so sure.)
My point was, and remains, that continuing to “be offended” at inappropriate behavior that was directed towards you at some time in your life is a worthless endeavor.
Men have been behaving inappropriately towards women since forever. Old men have been behaving inappropriately towards young girls since forever.
And, young boys and old men have been made to feel like shit since Adam was accused by G-d of violating His Command when Eve gave him the damned fruit! (note – for the dour among you; this is also sardonic humor)
I do not understand why reliving that particular “trauma” is worthwhile or useful.
Meanwhile, to quote myself: “The experiences stated here vis a vis Alex sure as hell sound like sexual abuse to me.”
Based on your reply, you need some more condemnations from me of Alex’s behavior other than me agreeing that it certainly sounds like he was a sexual abuser; me stating he was a grade A asshole at times; my remarks that he was on a power trip where he manipulated people; and other criticisms that I have posted regarding Alex.
Hmmm… There were times that Sharon publicly chewed him out for being sexually inappropriate? There were times when he was indeed cruel to his “students” on a strictly personal level? That he excused his bad behaviors by claiming that he “knew” more because of his “work?”
That I think that Bob’s cold, callous, and calculating “superior” attitude which causes real harm to his “students” is the result of him modeling himself on Alex’s excesses?
Sorry GSR, I gave my opinions as to what I witnessed vis a vis Alex’s behaviors.
I also gave my perceptions of what people, including yourself, and perhaps Linda Jo and others, mean when they say or write “sexual abuse.”
Violent rape and other totally involuntary sexual actions towards someone are sexual abuse.
Other actions are less abusive and, in today’s world, are often referred to as “sexual abuse” where the actions involved may have been voluntary or simply “hurt another person’s feelings” at the time.
Everybody gots dirty secrets GSR. In the Days of Yore, most of the “dirty secrets” of Alex’s behavior in “present time” (“school” circa 1978 to about 1983) were discussed at one point or another.
No, I am not shocked that Alex could have been a violent abuser of women or men. Yes, it did appear that to all practical purposes he was not such from about 1978 onwards.
He’s dead. And, he has been Judged for his actions in This World.
According to what I learned in “school” at the time, there is only one person responsible for my thoughts, emotions, and actions. And, that’s me. “Level of being attracts level of Life.”
And, I have since learned that this is not entirely true.
There is one other who is also responsible for “my life.” And that’s G-d.
How I react to the events of my life; how I deal with This World; how I choose to be pleased or offended, is up to me and G-d.
I have to struggle to deal with the Choices that He and I have made regarding my Life and everything else in This World.
It is an interesting struggle and it does indeed take the onus off of other people (as much as I want to blame everybody else for my problems) and place it squarely back on me and my choices and how I choose to react to All and Everything.
Ani ma’amin; This I believe.
All right… As I thought about it, I figured I’d give it a few more minutes to try and explain my point of view. Maybe this might help… ? –
I am presently 60 years old and have bad knees and am unable to work in construction as I have been off and on for the last 40 years and am therefore financially unstable. This is all the fault of effing Alex and Sharon and Bob et al who told me that I should learn how to be a construction laborer because it would help me “work on myself.”
I did not pursue being a massage therapist or a real estate agent, both interests of mine because effing Alex made fun of me and told me that I wanted to do these things for the “wrong reasons.”
Sharon told me to separate from my wife and I did for over two years damaging our marriage forever and probably scarring our then baby son forever.
Fred once advised me to go and humble and humiliate myself to get a job back that I had quit because it would be “right” for me to do so. I did; did not get the job;a and will never forget the needless humiliation I went through.
It made me incredibly depressed that I cared about Bob Klein as a friend and that he was a confused, authoritarian alcoholic who was convinced that I screwed him over when I got screwed because I followed his Delivery Business from Levitz to Puritan and ended up losing my truck and about $10,000.00 in monies owed me and, years later when I was not in school and running a moving business, he told me how I was trying to fuck him over because I wouldn’t help him in my business with his business.
Sharon’s alcohol fueled intimate ramblings with me as an “older student” scared me when she talked about her fucked up life due to the incongruous nature of her as Teacher and babbling mother and wife…
The cruelty of other “older students” at times just blew me away and ultimately, one minor episode of such cruelty got me kicked out of “school,” thank G-d.
The prime years I spent in “school” when others were establishing careers and patterns of life has left me permanently financially unstable and always grasping at straws to try and make a living.
And, I could go on with specifics but….
It’s a lie.
“School;” Alex; Sharon; Bob; Fred; or other characters are not and were not responsible for any of my Life.
I am. And, so is G-d.
And, the fact is that, if I had not gone through and done what I did and lived how I lived I would not be married to the person I am today; with the incredibly wonderful life I have today; with the astounding children and grandchildren I have today; and with the relationship I have to G-d; my world; and the world at large today….
Or, as George Moshe Murray is wont to say in all circumstances at all times – “Baruch Hashem (Thank G-d), Life is beautiful all the time.”
” … in trying to compare them to real sexual or other violent abuse.”
Well, Moshe, it seems that we aren’t going to come to an agreement about this issue, especially because it doesn’t seem to me that you are qualified to evaluate what is and isn’t “real sexual or other violent abuse”. I would hope, though, that in having had your own trauma, much of which was inflicted upon you by the “evolved school leadership”, you’d have more capacity for empathy. I just don’t see any empathy. You have a tendency, instead, to get on a soapbox about abdicating responsibility and I don’t agree with your assessment that I am somehow not taking responsibility for my feelings about past humiliations. That’s your interpretation of my attempts to shed light on the shady and hidden issue of sexual harassment and abuse. And you and I clearly disagree about this — but I believe that in order to heal from such a trauma, one needs to talk about it.
“Men have been behaving inappropriately towards women since forever. Old men have been behaving inappropriately towards young girls since forever.
And, young boys and old men have been made to feel like shit since Adam was accused by G-d of violating His Command when Eve gave him the damned fruit! (note – for the dour among you; this is also sardonic humor)
I do not understand why reliving that particular “trauma” is worthwhile or useful.
I am not reliving my trauma. In opening my mouth and talking about it, or writing about it, I have worked through it. Are you reliving yours? It sounds like you had an awful lot of trauma and I’m truly sorry that you endured the abuse — particularly this:
“When another school bully sneaked up behind me and spun me around while I was peeing in the floor urinal so that I ended up being exposed and briefly peeing on the floor, giving me a case of “bashful kidneys” that lasted well into my adult years where I found it difficult to pee in front of anyone (until, probably sometime in my 40′s when it didn’t matter anymore), I did not hold that bully responsible my for my “condition” which obviously traumatized me in some fashion.”
Perhaps it may have helped you if you had held the bully responsible. If you’d spent some time in therapy talking about the damage done, maybe you’d have some ability to empathize. Are we supposed to just write things off as past bad behaviors, boy will be boys and not supposed to shine light on the damage these behaviors leave behind? Maybe you are right and these things will never change; but I’m going to keep trying to shed light on them, just as I am shedding light on the bullies in “school”. It has been nothing but healing for me to discuss these things and place blame where it belongs — on the bully, abuser, — and take it off the victim.
So much intense and profound discussion has gone on since I started composing this– I’ll try to cover some of it, without being too redundant.
Just one side note to GSR– you are doing some amazing work here– I’m very grateful.
Upper Lobby wrote:
“I just don’t find it acceptable, and I find it a bit cold to take the attitude that, well, I never saw anything personally, which implies that nothing inappropriate ever took place.”
“…brad finishes with, “But I never personally witnessed or experienced Gans or Horn act out in a specifically sexually predatory manner…”
The fact that I wrote that as the last thing in my post did not mean to suggest “therefore it never happened” — although I see how it could easily be understood that way.
It was a direct response to a specific question I was asked a few months ago regarding this subject. I cut and pasted that entire response into my post here (the rape interpretation story and some Horn/Gans’ dynamics)– but the context was slightly different. I was referring more to my role as a direct witness. Next time I’ll edit more carefully.
Upper Lobby:…”How exactly would you have been present, an eye witness, when violent acts of sexual abuse took place? You would have been given a ring-side seat with popcorn?”
Of course not. I never was in an “older students class”– so I just caught stuff on the periphery– which could also be pretty disturbing.
But there are other people who were much more exposed to specific group events, interactions and Gans/Horn than I was. They may not have witnessed a rape, but they were closer to the “inner circle” and the milieu where violence or threats of violence were normalized. As well as other attitudes. I was only differentiating the level of my personal involvement.
HDT wrote
“…I do believe in as much accuracy as I can muster. Please try to understand that for at least a certain set of people who came in contact with this group at a particular time, the experience seems to have been markedly different.”
“please, don’t assume that people like me or moishe3rd who claim a significantly different experience than yours are lying to you or to themselves…”
I think accuracy and going against one’s own preconceived notions is essential to understanding the dynamics of this charismatic group (or understanding almost anything for that matter). My bias definitely shows through my posts– I’m never as dispassionate as I’d like to be. But I attempt not to interpret anything that I was not a direct witness to– (and of course part of that is MY interpretation of events)– and I try to qualify what is speculation and rumor, and what is based on my personal experience.
No doubt–your experience was definitely “markedly different” than mine– which is critical to understanding and eventually collating an honest and true historical and psychological profile of the “school” and its methodology since its 1960s inception. I think GSR used the metaphor of a quilt earlier in her blog. Various years, personalities, locations, psychologies, (psychopathies)?– a lot of variables, a lot of different kinds and levels of involvement.
HDT: “Gang beating rituals” that Brad mentions? Again, something completely out of my experience, and I had an association with the group for maybe 5 years.”
“Not only didn’t I experience anything like this, I didn’t hear anything remotely similar from anyone, and I was very close to a number of other people who were involved.”
Organized physical violence was something I witnessed fairly often, in one way or another. “Rituals” seems fairly vague, but at one ticket meeting, men were lined up in one of the halls while the “older student” slapped and punched a few people who didn’t meet their quotas. One person’s daughter was twenty feet around the corner where her father was on the ground, being physically assaulted.
This was the only ticket meeting where I witnessed physical violence (as opposed to browbeating and intense, often furious pressure). I’m sure it’s not the only one, but I was not privy to most of what was going on at the Theatre– and I believe I was, for various reasons, protected and somewhat shielded from the more extremes of physical behavior, although I could be wrong about this.
Sometimes if someone was leaving the group they’d have a “men’s meeting” where a number of guys stood around, punching and threatening him (I heard this particular meeting through a door rather than seeing it– I was not at the “meeting”). As well as other instances. I won’t go through the list right now. But there was a ritualistic and cathartic element to much of this physical confrontation. I think “gang beatings” is not hyperbole, but a pretty accurate description. We’re talking a lot of heavy psychological (and traumatic) trips in a fairly compressed time frame.
The Examiner front page story (ostensibly about the child negligence charge, but initiated by members who were tired of ALL the abuse) and the adverse publicity that followed, put a very quick damper on the physical abuse– so it was a little easier not to get distracted by the fear of getting the crap beaten out of you or hitting someone. One could eventually focus a little more comfortably on the finer things at “school”. And as GMM and others have written, there was a tremendous amount of theatrical and creative activity going on– (artistic merit is another matter).
I also think that there are people whose experience, while different and more positive than mine, were partially exposed to that somewhat authoritarian mind set and chose to ignore and/or rationalize it. And lied about it to themselves. I did too of course, during my tenure and for a long time afterward.
And I’m guessing that by 1985– at the latest — there was very little, if any institutional physical violence–certainly not in the Boston satellite. Horn & Gans didn’t want to get kicked out every town they set up shop.
HDT: “Lots of divorce, but I never heard that people were somehow told to do so.”
“Passing kids along? First time I heard that was on forums like this one and it was a complete shock.”
There were a lot of mass marriages initiated by Gans and sometimes Horn, mostly in the mid to late 70s — (apart from the continual “teacher” and peer pressure). I doubt that everyone who divorced was part of that setup, but there were a lot of forced relationships many, if not most of which ended badly. Mostly due to Chief Feature defects, I guess. Probably didn’t work out great for the children or people’s financial straits. GSR has some posts about Gans and the group’s conception of marriage which come pretty close to the mark.
Gans was heavily into the whole foreign adoption thing– but the switching/giving away children thing was new to me. I think that was mostly a NYC phenomenon– as were probably some of the more extreme practices of groups directly under Gans & Horn.
Hi Brad,
Thank you very much for this honest account of your experiences in the California version of “school”. I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying, I think it’s very important for those who are wondering what they are in, or who are seeking information about a spouse, or friend’s involvement, to have access to the history of this group. When I started learning the history, although it was disturbing and infuriating and I questioned a lot of what I read, it definitely shed light on the more disturbing aspects of “school”, especially the attitude of indifference bordering on hostility showed towards my husband and his experiences of the illustrious institution. I don’t think it would be so easy for “school” to rope people in — although it hasn’t been so easy for them lately — and keep them until the end of their days, or at least until they were no longer useful to the group.
Your voice is an important part of the bigger picture and I appreciate it.
May you find peace.
GSR
Things I personally witnessed / experienced as a long-time member of the Boston group, in Boston:
– Arranged marriages among schoolmembers, sometimes at the expense of existing marriages involving spouses not in school
– One member of a married couple in school being forced out of school in order to make it easier for the remaining member to be “reassigned” to another spouse
– Encouragement to cheat on non-schooled spouses with other school members
– Parents being forced to hide pregnancies, then being forced or at least intensely pressured to give babies up for adoption
– Encouragement to physically assault other students in class, and then public mockery and humiliation if the person refused
– Institutionalized and systematic lying and informing in the form of constant reporting on younger students by “sustainers”
– Institutionalized lying in the form of misrepresentations or smear campaigns about students who have left school
– Systematic psychological torment, including vicious denunciations in class, unprovoked tirades, and verbal threats
– Untreated and unacknowledged alcoholism, in at least one case leading to a car accident after class
– A systematic program of sleep deprivation
– A systematic program of increasing school duties/responsibilities without regard for health, personal situations, etc.
– Constant pressure to ignore work and family responsibilities, and to lie to bosses and spouses
– Physically detaining students trying to leave class
– Going after students who have left school in order to bring them back (a la Scientology and other cults)
It sounds like the abuse was more overt in the bad old San Francisco days, but it was no less pervasive in Boston. This was all allowed and most of the time perpetrated by “teachers” and “older students” who were supposedly on a “higher level” and “working on their being.” If it wasn’t so revolting, it would be laughable. If that’s “evolution,” then I choose to die like a dog in the street, thank you anyway. (Now that I think of it, that’s insulting to dogs, who are orders of magnitude more loyal, loving, and sensible than so-called “teachers.”)
Warren Peace says:
April 7, 2014 at 4:31 pm
“Things I personally witnessed / experienced as a long-time member of the Boston group, in Boston:…”
What years were these?
Warren Peace – Thank you and bless you for contributing to this blog in an easy to read comprehensive list; the more of those secrets we let out, the less likely it is that people will be duped into this con game.
Most sincerely,
GSR
Brad, this was in the 80s and 90s.
When in the 80s, if you don’t mind my asking? I’m wondering exactly when things changed over.
I guess my point is that I don’t think things every really “changed over.” SOme things maybe went underground and were less visible to the rank and file. Or maybe I don’t understand exactly what you mean?
Anyway, the physical intimidation stuff dates mostly from the middle to late 1980’s, when Alex Horn was still in the picture. All the other stuff happened all through the 1990’s. I don’t know what’s happened since the early 2000’s except from the esoteric freedom blog and this blog and things I’ve heard from ex-students have told me.
Is there’s a former teacher or older student out there who can bare witness to what’s been going on “behind the curtain” in the last 10 or so years? It seems pretty clear that the younger students have a different and probaly more limited view of the situation.
“Anyway, the physical intimidation stuff dates mostly from the middle to late 1980′s, when Alex Horn was still in the picture.”
This is all the Boston group you’re talking about?
What years were you involved with the group and where?